The funniest thing about Trump are those who feel he is of a piece, separate from US history and somehow a break from it. That this government is significantly, qualitatively worse than those that came before, rather than an extension of it. (A good example is immigration policy, about which Trump is somewhat worse than Obama, but only somewhat, and where Obama had a chance to end Bush’s policies, he embraced them, instead.)
We now have the spectacle of the success of the cloture vote for re-authorization of section 702 of FISA, which allows warrantless spying on Americans who have contact with foreigners, and which has been changed to allow the database of all such conversations to be searched, trolling for crimes.
These seems like a fairly clear violation of the Bill of Rights prohibition on, well, warrantless searches, but there you go.
Eighteen Senate Democrats crossed the line to make this possible and so did 65 House Democrats. Obama, of course, supported the FISA bill (which was bad even without this newest addition).
Indeed, going back to 2001, the Patriot Act, the 21st century “daddy” of authoritarian overreach was opposed by only one Senator out of 100 (and he’s no longer in the Senate).
One can cavil that at least less Democrats voted for this, but somehow “enough” always do, and those who know how legislatures work will suspect that those who didn’t were given “walks” so they can say they voted against.
There are three likely possible outcomes of our ongoing realignment period. One is left-wing populism. The second is right-wing populism (a very different thing, and not what Trump is actually doing. Its policies are what Bannon prefers.)
The third is an authoritarian surveillance state which attempts to freeze current power relationships for as long as possible.
And that’s what too many Democrats and Republicans are more than okay with; that’s what they want.
The results of the work I do, like this article, are free, but food isn’t, so if you value my work, please DONATE or SUBSCRIBE.
Ché Pasa
Slow? Not really. The US has been on this road for a long time. Perhaps from the beginning.
The Patriot Act of 2001 was effectively the US version of the Enabling Act, and it was criticized at the time for that very reason. Some of us were among its critics. Once enacted there was — and is — no going back. Not that there was necessarily a non-authoritarian past to go back to. It was a lighter authoritarianism — for some, not all Americans — that’s all.
Yes, this slide, no matter when it began , is what our ruling clique wants, and it is just as true of the Trump regime as any other you could name.
The question is what are you going to do about it?
realitychecker
Hey Che Pasta, when you gonna either produce that lying quote about Trump you tried to attribute to me the other day, or offer an apology for being a stinking drunken liar? I’ll keep asking until you do one or the other, scumface.
You don’t have enough ethics to comment on anyone else.
You are an embarrassment to decent people.
Emma
I actually think more Democrats than Republicans are afraid of progressivism, because it’s their own political position that will be lost to time — and, in the short term, it’s their own influence and wealth that will be threatened. A legitimately democratic socialist (or whatever) government would be emboldening to enough right-wing authority-worshippers that their elite class could dine out on it for decades, and they know it. They want us to become “radicalized,” on the left. They appear to regard the conflicts that they prosecute with actual leftists (as opposed to Democrats), comically enough, as some kind of of civilizational war; one they think they can win and then be victorious, and after that history will be over forever. It’s an odd way to think, but it seems common enough a worldview.
This news about the careful preservation of an unconstiutional & morally wrong survellaince state is dispiriting. I once got into a digital argument with an incredibly intelligent Communist about the degree to which American voters own the imperialism and genocide perpetrated all over the world, including domestically, by their own government. He was very dedicated to the idea of working-class Americans as helpless, disenfranchised pawns, and he argued that nobody who isn’t a member of the cultural elite owns any of the vile acts perpetrated by our government. I disagreed pretty strongly, and I still do. For many voters, the protection of unconstitutional domestic spying programs is a good outcome, because the surveillance state is the only thing standing between themselves & The Turrists — and if you’re not doing anything wrong, you don’t have anything to worry about, amirite? Americans absolutely love this kind of thing. Americans love spying, and they love imperialism and genocide, or every Senator who ever voted to support American war interests would be voted out of office after one term, and any candidate who campaigned on expanding them would lose badly. Eventually, America would cease to be a war power, and without The Turrists substantiating its existence, the the survellaince state would lapse into nonexistence. But that doesn’t happen, and to the degree that it doesn’t happen voters are accountable for its continuance. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney and whoever else are responsible for the genocide in Iraq, but so am I, and so is everybody else who was over 18 in 2001. This is exactly the same priniciple. If these 18 Democratic senators still have jobs in a few years, we can conclude that the survellance state/total war engine is a feature of late-stage democracy, and not a bug.
I think people are mostly just embarrassed by Trump, honestly. They want to have a president they can nakedly worship, like John F. Kennedy. They’re not really interested in what the president actually does or says, as long as he’s classy enough to intimidate them (and their hated enemies).
realitychecker
@ Ian
You are so very right, as usual, but unfortunately all the feeble minds who have proven themselves unable to see two sides to any story (unlike you and me) are determined to keep supporting their supposed tribe or team regardless of where the truth is or what their side is doing to hurt the country and all the decent, law-abiding, regular folks who are its rightful owners.
And the folks on our side of the political spectrum, the left side, are too spineless to ever fight.
The future is set, and it is universal corporatocracy with regular folks stuck in livestock status forever.
It will be OK as soon as we all accept it./s
I will never accept it, but I’m really feeling I should give up trying to persuade others of anything. Maybe then some folks here can have their safe space where they can pretend the world has already been child-prooofed for them?
highrpm
@rc,
so, let’s see. what’s our expected life span, now that we’ve chosen not to,
– work for public corporations
– buy their products
really crimps our styles . how much is one’s life really worth? and what’s the effect of a measly few bow outs in a population of 300M?
Herman
Thank you for this post, Ian. I was thinking of this issue today. I sometimes browse partisan Democratic forums and it is aggravating to see people call Trump the worst president ever and somehow uniquely evil.
Much of the hatred for Trump isn’t even about his policies but is about Trump’s vulgarity and boorishness. Trump’s supporters are seen as the dregs of the white working-class. To upper middle-class liberals and even many conservatives that makes Trump uniquely evil more than anything he does. It is the symbolism of the barbarians having taken over. You can see this with regard to the obsession with Trump’s love for professional wrestling and fast food, all markers of lower-class taste in the eyes of many.
The attempt to rehabilitate George W. Bush is the high point of this absurdity. Trump has yet to do something as remotely awful as starting the Iraq War but we are now supposed to be nostalgic for Good Guy Bush because he wasn’t a vulgar boor and “respected the office.” This is the height of Aaron Sorkin-style politics
realitychecker
@ highrpm
I don’t see what your point is, could you clarify?
I have pretty much lived as you describe, mostly worked for myself selling my own acquired skills, never being much of a materialist. I’m 66 and still going.
But I don’t expect everybody to be like me-I decided early to devote my life to learning and being an honest observer and trying to do some good for the world, and never boxed myself in with a wife, kids, or a career that would prevent me from exploring whatever interesting paths might present themselves.
Do you think only rapacious soulless corporations can give us an opportunity to earn money?
All I really know is that we cannot live with all the lying and rule-breaking which are now the norm, and still regard ourselves as free, or even decent, people.
Nobody even knows what the word “free” means anymore.
And we can’t pretend that all on our side are decent–just look at the cryptocurrency thread from the other day, and note that nobody here gave enough of a damn about the truth to say a word about it, except Peter, who everybody here loves to hate.
realitychecker
@ Herman
It’s funny, this eternal focus on the right or wrong word.
Does anybody not realize that every one of these scumbags that rule us curse their asses off when they are not in front of the cameras? So, once again, we are trying to embrace a lie.
The lies are what will kill us. That’s why I’m kicking Ten Bears and Che Pasa’s asses now, because they both told obvious lies about me, and I called them out on it, and they won’t apologize. They tried to destroy my credibility, so I am destroying theirs, only I have truth on my side.
We need more of that.
I believe in punishing such people, or else they just keep doing more of the same.
Hugh
I wanted to park this somewhere. December over December, real average hourly wages for production and nonsupervisory employees on private nonfarm payrolls, seasonally adjusted, that is the inflation adjusted hourly wages of the bottom 80% or so of workers over the last year, increased a measly 0.1%. Average weekly wages increased 0.7%. So much for the blistering Trump economy I keep hearing about. Stock market 26,000. Wheeee!
OT, Trump had a physical to which a very general, very simplistic dementia screen was added. This is being touted as showing that Trump has no mental illness. It does nothing of the sort. It is a little like saying that because a patient has a pulse they have no heart disease. It’s the wrong answer to the wrong question. Trump gives us daily examples that’s he’s fucking crazy to use the medical parlance. But an official diagnosis would require a psychiatrist and it wouldn’t hurt to have a cognitive psychologist involved. Rear Adm. Ronny Jackson, Trump’s physician has a background in emergency medicine and is neither.
As I like to say, the principal difference between the Republicans and the Democrats is that the Republicans wear red jerseys and the Democrats wear blue jerseys. After that, it is hard to tell them apart. It is also important to note, as Ian does, who votes to set up a final vote and the cosmetic nature of many of those final votes.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
How kind of the resident sealion to inform TB & CP of that, since I rather doubt they’d ever have noticed otherwise.
It seems rather silly for a man who has no power, and never will, to speak of punishing people.
Tom W Harris
Can’t we all just get along, haw haw haw?
Willy
I already have a long.
Where Trump is uniquely anti-American, is with his constant attacks on science, law, and the media, without being able to intelligently articulate why. But sooner or later we may be learning why.
realitychecker
@ The Pecker
I just tell the truth, and it feels like hell. (h/t Harry Truman)
The fact that you don’t understand the power of truth to defeat lies might mean you’ve been banging your head against a tree for too long lol.
Just stop, things will get better. 🙂
But thanks for your contribution to the collective wisdom, such as it was./s
Back to your doilies now.
realitychecker
@ Tom
Should we all just get along?
We have liars, child molesters, killers, thieves, torturers, cannibals, animal abusers etc., etc., running around wherever you look.
I don’t WANT to get along with any of them. Frankly, I’d rather hurt them. Badly.
But that’s just me. YMMV.
(I suspect that you get it.) 🙂
realitychecker
@ Willy
“I already have a long.”
No you didn’t! Not a penis joke. The horror . . . 🙂
realitychecker
@ Hugh
You used to require much more careful calibration of yourself. What happened? TDS?
There was no wage increase of any note since the 1970’s, and all the wealth increase during the Obama years went to the top few percent.
The stock market rise helps all with a 401K or an IRA, to some degree. And without DOUBLING the national debt like Obama did.
Get a grip, please. You’re so much better than this. I remember.
different clue
Who among the highly visible political fame-farmers and office-seekers and society-influencers wants what?
In super-simple terms, the Bannons want right-wing populism, the bipartisan Clintobusha Depublicrats want authoritarian status-quo stabilization and intensification, and the Bernies and such post-Bernies as may emerge want left-wing populism. I lift a finger in support of the Bernies and post-Bernies.
Since I am gunless and expect to remain that way, the only rebellion I might be joining or furthering would be personal economic rebellion within the letter of the law. Most of the people here do not HAVE to buy things from Amazon, for example. There are still more expensive anti-Bezos outlets for many things. If one isn’t even willing to spend dollar Two atan Amazon-free venue in order to keep dollar One away from Bezos, one isn’t willing to do much. But if one is willing to do that, one might be willing to do a few more things.
Every dollar is a bullet on the field of economic combat.
No one owes the rich a living.
Lead the money around by the nose.
And for those who seek stirring phrases to align the emotions with the analysis, how about these . . .
Make love, not money.
Tune out, slow down, slack off.
realitychecker
@ dc
I’m good with all that, but, there’s no reason to think guns are the only means to effective guerilla tactics.
realitychecker
@ Hugh
You do know that Trump’s doctor was also the Obama doctor, don’t you? And the W. doctor, iirc.
Are you a doctor? I mean, free diagnoses don’t mean much from a layman, even if the layman is Hugh lol. (See what I did there?)
Hugh
Actually, free diagnoses from whatever source don’t mean much most of the time. But Trump’s pathology is so clear that what is interesting is all the rationalizing about why we should not believe our lying eyes. This one is not hard.
As someone who has been behind the documentation of secular wage stagnation, I am far from surprised by it. My point above is that I have been seeing a lot of cheerleading about a Trump bounce and that the economy is doing well. My ongoing documentation and analysis on wages and jobs show that it isn’t and the bounce was a deadcat one. It is odd to be criticized by people who have probably never looked at, let alone taken apart a BLS or Census table.
BlizzardOfOz
Hugh is more of an expert psychologist than professional psychologists (who are ethically forbidden from diagnosing without an interview). Also an expert climatologist. This is all just in his spare time.
realitychecker
@ Hugh
I’ve been trading S&P 500 index futures for 30 years, so I’m not totally unfamiliar, but I will concede I don’t dissect them overmuch because nobody in the trenches puts much faith in them any more. Not that I doubt your dissection, not at all.
I just don’t think those numbers come close to conveying the real nature of the Trump phenomenon on the markets.
To me the real message the markets are taking is that the corporations have everything going their way, with nobody opposing them. That’s a long-term, big picture thing. And believe me, I’m not happy to see that reality, either. But more Obama fed the corporation with 10 trillion of free money, and Hillary promised more status quo. So, there’s that.
But I am happy to see political correctness and its craziest proponents shown up to be hysterical fools. That’s a good adjustment, IMO.
I am glad to see the trade pacts questioned, and open to adjustment. That is a good thing.
I am glad to see the globalization theme challenged. That is a good thing.
I am glad to see all the radical pro-immigration folks getting challenged. That is a good thing.
And I am very glad, no, delighted, to see corporate media getting slaughtered with their own hysterical gyrations. That is a great and very necessary thing. Worth the price of admission all by itself, IMO, because we have to get away from the influence all these liars have.
And nobody else on the menu was going to do any of that.
So, mixed bag, which says to me that your analysis should be more balanced. And until Trump, it always was, IMO.
realitychecker
Edit:But Obama fed the corporations
Ché Pasa
@rc
PTSD can be a terrible disability. It can be treated, but there are no guarantees. I have friends who are still coping with the horrors of Vietnam. Some are better at the coping part than others, but none have fully recovered.
Meanwhile, you’ve shown you can do archive research. I suggest you do more of it with regard to your own comments:
1) Find any in which you criticize Trump. No, calling him an “asshole” doesn’t count. On your scoresheet, that’s a compliment.
2) Find out how often you advised us to “wait and see” before we judged Trump and his administration.
3) Find out how often you accept or encourage a violent response to something that’s relatively benign — “political correctness,” for example — and how often you’re unable to recognize or condemn the violence employed by the state against supposed foreign devils or domestic rebels.
I’m not going to confront you with your own words; it could be another trigger and there’s no point. But you can find them yourself, and I hope that if you do, you’ll take the opportunity to reflect a bit on how your comments are often perceived as unproductive and unmoored from reality.
Peace.
Stirling Newberry
Why do you engage with reality checker? He is a loon, and you are loons for talking to him.
V. Arnold
Stirling Newberry
January 18, 2018
And why does Ian allow his blog to be destroyed?
I know of no other that would put up with this psychopathy…
Hugh
I think what we are seeing with Trump is an acceleration in the rate of American decline. The lunacy is getting loonier. The celebration of ignorance more frantic. The Orwellianism more pervasive. The destructiveness more destructive.
Tom Robinson
Ian,
This not-much-difference analysis may work for comparing war policy or surveillance, but it fails and ignores very real destructive changes coming from the Trump administration that contrast wildly from Obama. For instance, offshore drilling. Transgender protections. Pro-choice. Public education. Even legal marijuana. The list isn’t short — it’s long. Why are you glossing this over as Tweedledum-Tweedledee? Are the drones so awful, and the foreign interventions so bad that the monstrous turn back to oil and coal is no big deal? Or are just being contrarian for the fun of it?
I’m baffled by this ongoing insistence that there’s precious little difference between Republicans and Democrats.
TR
Nonya
Hello fellow patrons, I’m a recent visitor to these parts of the interwebs and wanted to say that I was drawn here by the quality of the writing and the depth of the commentary. But after getting to know all the characters here, it was starting to become quite a tiresome exercise to read, until I fell upon the perfect strategy: ignore any comment by reality checker. So much better now, please don’t feed the troll. Yuck!
Peter
@RC
You lucky fellow, you now have the guy who identifies with a psycho revolutinary killer trying to define your mental health.is no bottom where the postmodern nihilist won’t go and his fellow travelers are pointing their crooked finger at the heretic.
realitychecker
@ Che Pasa
A year ago, I said we had to wait six months to see what Trump would really bring. That was just common sense in the face of the mass hysteria from disappointed Clintonites.
The other day, you wrote that I was still saying that. It was a lie, and I challenged you to provide the quote. You did not because you could not.
And you still cannot. And you don’t have the character to admit it or to apologize. Instead, you just come at me afresh with “PTSD.” You are just a degenerate moron, no more, no less.
The fact that you have a bunch of other butthurt truth haters supporting you here just stokes my disgust for all the other dishonest morons who comment here.
JUST PROVIDE THE FUCKING QUOTE ALREADY, YOU DRUNKEN MAGGOT!!!!!
This is not going away until you do.
Same for Ten Beers, for the reasons CLEARLY AND COMPLETELY LAID OUT ABOVE.
Progressives seem to have degenerated into nothing better than truth-haters, as witness those who’ve chimed in here in support of the liars. You should all be ashamed of yourselves, but you don’t even have enough awareness to feel shame.
Ian must be so encouraged by you guys./s Pearls before swine, Ian. I feel for you.
V. Arnold
Nonya
January 18, 2018
But after getting to know all the characters here, it was starting to become quite a tiresome exercise to read, until I fell upon the perfect strategy: ignore any comment by reality checker. So much better now, please don’t feed the troll. Yuck!
Excellent observation; and true!
But Ian refuses to do anything; maybe he’s waiting for the poster’s to revolt.
If so, the time is now; or boycott Ian’s blog.
Those are the options…
V. Arnold
Ian’s possition; self correct or fuck you…
realitychecker
Just wow.
Some one of you geniuses, please explain this.
If we can’t agree on the most basic level of discussion, i.e., that we prefer the truth to obvious false attempts at slander, how can we ever hope to have any constructive discussion about more complex issues?
How can it be ‘unfair’ to require a slanderous attacker to provide the quote that he says is the basis of his attack?
It can’t. And anyone who can’t see that is a waste of skin. Pure and simple.
The Stephen Miller Band
What I want you to do, realityschmeckle, is criticize Trump and his Supporters outside of, and independent from, the lens/prism of the corrupt mainstream media that is ultimately beholden to, and a tool of, The Rich just as Trump is.
I want you to own criticism of Trump and of his Supporters. Don’t deflect to the Game the Mainstream Media is playing with Trump & his Supporters. It shouldn’t affect your mutually exclusive and independent & objective criticism of him and the System that generated him.
But first you have to criticize Trump and his Supporters. And I’ve yet to see you GENUINELY do that. And I believe there is a reason for that. I believe you are part of The Establishment and a Supporter yourself. And you’re working this venue for all it’s worth and maybe you’ve even bought that privilege as The Rich are wont to do. The Rich can buy anything, even our backbones and ultimately our souls.
A Resistance, let alone an Evolution, cannot be comprised of Soulless and Spineless Meat Sacks hoping they’ll make it to the Nursing Home unscathed.
The Stephen Miller Band
There is no doubt for me whatsoever that Peter is a Psychopathic Killer, if not in deed, certainly in spirit & sentiment.
Peter is the Quintessence of America’s Alphabet Agencies and we ALL know that these organizations, various heads of the same Octopus, are Fully-Formed Psychopaths after 70 years of entrenched maturation.
They have given us Trump and they protect & enable Trump. The Alphabet Agencies, and those who comprise them, are Psychopathic Murderers. Any intelligent person has to know this but is too afraid to admit it let alone say it in public.
If you want to take power back, you will have to deal with the Alphabet Agencies. They will murder any challenger. They have in the past and they will again if it comes to that. Currently, they’re so powerful and so pervasive, no challenger has a chance of being metaphorically born. They extract them from the womb, or better yet, they have sterilized that process altogether and Social Media has been an awesome tool in this regard.
Any talk of taking control of political parties is futile until you address the psychopathic power of the Alphabet Agencies.
realitychecker
@ STMB
Your insanity is well-documented, so no response to you is warranted.
realitychecker
@ Ian
I hope you note that V, Arnold is actually calling on folks to BOYCOTT YOUR BLOG.
Free speech is such a valued thing tom the post-Trump left. Boycott everything that isn’t our dogma.
What could be more insidious?
Peter
@Tom R
If you don’t use the thousands of products made from oil or are at least dramatically reducing your use you can take a high-handed position about getting off of fossil fuels. Working people in the US need a dependable relatively cheap supply of fuel to get to work and live their lives, there is no replacement available or affordable to substitute for it.
Trump faced a choice of continuing to damage the economy demanded by the anti-oil alarmists or to continue to build civilization and reduce not expand poverty. There are no plans to expand the use of coal just to allow the utilities to decide how and when to convert to gas not some NWO body bypassing the constitution.
There are costs and trade-offs with the opening of these drilling areas but the alternative is stagnation and decline which seems to be the goal of Save The World extremists.
realitychecker
Hey V. Arnold, haven’t you already sworn THREE TIMES in high dudgeon to leave this blog forever? Why do you keep coming back like a herpes sore?
Is the problem that you can’t find yourself a little belly-warmer there in the Sex Tourism Capital of the World this morning? Are you feeling grumpy as a result?
Calling on folks to boycott Ian’s living is the worst manners possible. Why don’t you just curl up and die already, you miserable wretch?
realitychecker
I am so proud to have the enemies I have made here, like this guy:
” highrpm permalink
January 18, 2018
@rc,
you sure know how to bait a hook and set it you ole troll you. i suggest you grow your present twisted personality disordered drivel-driven world view a bit. take a break banging on virtual others and immerse yourself for a year or two in chechar’s sitet. you’ll come out a different person.
and what’s so wrong with the nazis? your bought the public school line in early childhood and its stayed with you, ye ole jew luver ye. ah, lov chowing those bloody little foreskins with the rabbis? tasty plus (agood for the pineal gland i hear, 1 month of extra lifespan per.
fuk off.”
I’m proud to stand alone against all you losers if I have to.
nihil obstet
@Tom Robinson
If the list of items that significantly distinguishes Obama and Trump is long, not short, you would make a more convincing case with a short but accurate list.
Pro-choice? The signature achievement (as Obama supporters like to call it) of Obama’s presidency, the ACA does not require compliant policies to cover abortion.
Education? The Obama set up a federal funding mechanism for schools where the rating system for award of the funds called for high levels of standardized testing and the expansion of charter schools. This has been destructive to public schools. Of course, you may think that public schools are a bad thing, but it’s controversial enough that a simple “Obama was better on education” doesn’t really mean that for many people.
On the other hand, U.S. life expectancy declined while Obama was in office. Infant mortality increased. This seems to be tied to economic failures. Yet Obama made failed bankers and bank shareholders whole, while his HAMP program was a joke on mortgage holders. He wanted a TPP like NAFTA on steroids that would have transferred more power to multinational corporations. Meanwhile, he presented an economic program heavy on tax cuts, without a serious strong push for energy conservation sustainable energy investment.
Yes, drones are awful and foreign interventions are bad. But Obama was not that good domestically either. Trump is crass and Obama is cool, but that’s a pretty silly way to choose a political office-holder.
realitychecker
The evidence against Ten Beers:
” realitychecker permalink
January 15, 2018
@ Ten Bears
We can all have differing views about whether and when violence is OK, I guess, but the view that it is NEVER justified, or doesn’t really exist and happen no matter what we think about it, is just childish wishing.
E.g. I can’t ever condone the violence you have spoken of where you brag about unleashing 17 hunting dogs on an innocent bear before you execute it from a safe distance. You think that’s good and justified, but I don’t.
We should still be able to discuss the issues, though.”
realitychecker
” Ten Bears permalink
January 15, 2018
You’re a fucking liar. I’ve never shared my bear-hunting experiences here, and I don’t use dogs.
You are a fucking liar. Want to step outside?”
realitychecker
” realitychecker permalink
January 15, 2018
@ Ten Bears
I’m a liar????
I’m on my way out to see the Three Billboards movie, but when I get back I’m going to dig that EXACT quote out and shove it in your drunken face.
That’s a promise.
And when will you learn that there’s nothing more ridiculous than threatening violence to an Internet antagonist? C’mon Beers, eat my liver, I’m waitin’ for ya near the ticket window lol.”
realitychecker
” realitychecker permalink
January 15, 2018
@ Ten Bears
OH SHIT, TEN BEERS, HOW VERY FUCKING EMBARRASSING FOR YOU!!!!!!
From Ian’s August 8, 2017 post, Book Review: Confucius and the Chinese Way:
” Ten Bears permalink
August 9, 2017
Japanese eat shark fin soup, slicing a shark’s dorsal off before dumping it back into the ocean, alive, to sink to the bottom of the ocean, alive. Anglo-Europeans eat goose vomit. India Indians eat brains culled from live monkeys. I have eaten the heart of a bear I had just shot, after seventeen dogs ran it three miles up the side of a mountain.
Not butchering rabbits, my friend. No one group of people – there is only one race: the human race – holds the corner on cruelty to our cousins.”
Let me repeat your words, you fucking liar: “I have eaten the heart of a bear I had just shot, after seventeen dogs ran it three miles up the side of a mountain.”
YET, just above, you called ME a LIAR, for saying you have said that. You say you never did or said any such thing. You threatened me for saying it.
Credibility is all we have online, and when we destroy someone’s credibility, we have effectively killed him online.
You tried to destroy my credibility by pronouncing me a liar, but I have just destroyed yours instead. Either you were lying then, or you were lying today. Either way, you are a liar.
You should have just apologized when I offered you the opportunity hours ago.
You still owe me an apology–are you man enough, are you ethical enough, to give it now?
Don’t make me come there and “rip your balls off,” as you love to say lol.
Do the right thing now, and we can just move on. I don’t have any real problem with you, except that I don’t like your hunting methods and I will destroy anybody who impugns my integrity and good faith the way you just tried to do.
Otherwise, I will just keep torturing you with this, the same way Che Pasa will get tortured for his repeated lies about me (Which reminds me,where’s that fucking lying quote you tried to hang on me, Che Pasa?)
Too many here have deliberately chosen dishonesty as a regular practice in lieu of honest argumentation. If there is ever any reason to ban ANYONE, as many cowards here have urged Ian to do to me, it should be for LYING, not for making unpopular (to snowflakes and Dem slaves) arguments that are made in good faith. I hope Ian takes note. I really do. People like that are not an asset to this fabulous blog.
Cheers, Beers. 🙂”
That is all from the Cryptocurrency thread the other day, also where Che Pasa slandered me.
metamars
Democratic participation in swamp-friendly agendas is made easier by a media that diverts attention away from real Trumpian scandals – in particular, ones that establishment Dems may not want attention paid to, either.
consortiumnews.com has an excellent article on this score, “Missing the Trump Team’s Misconduct”
@ https://consortiumnews.com/2018/01/09/missing-the-trump-teams-misconduct/
Willy
Maybe pro footballer Ha Ha Clinton-Dix was named after something Monica said. Millions wouldn’t let that episode go, because the “more presidential” appearing Reagan never entered the Oval Office without his suit and tie. Today Trumps anti-presidential antics are so common we wouldn’t be surprised if Russian hookers regularly visited there. That’s the new normal. The problem is, he isn’t rubbing it in the faces of those who hate his freedoms. He’s reinforcing the growing hatred of the way American government currently works. And it’s not for us.
Willy
Voters thought “The Swamp” was all about those in power that game the system, to the detriment of the rest of us.
I’d need to know how Trump is not encouraging corrupt establishment behavior. If he’s actually fighting it, so much the better.
realitychecker
I have to say this.
The reason I read Ian and only comment here is because Ian, despite his ironclad progressive credentials and history, has shown the intellectual integrity to analyze situations from more than one side. He understands what I learned as a child, that there are at least two sides to every story.
In modern public dialogue, it seems we have instead adopted the credo that there is only one side to every story. Like Ian, I will always stand against such limited ways of thought.
MARKETPLACE OF IDEAS MEANS THAT YOU MUST MAKE ROOM FOR MORE THAN ONE FLAVOR OF IDEA!!!!
Another thing I learned as a child is that sticks and stones may break bones, but words will never harm you.
Yet, we now seem to believe that words are the same as actual violence. And that is crazy. So sometimes I use very pointed language just to try and break through what seems to be impervious mentalities, of which there are just too many predominating. And guess what? The stuff that comes back at me from easily offended lefties is more vile than anything I ever said.
How are you all OK with being ad hominem champions? You were supposed to be the smart ones, the ones who believed in free speech above all. Now, we have V. Arnold calling for a BOYCOTT of the place where Ian makes his living. He’s an asshole, but he is just echoing the boycott calls that have become everyday occurrences from the left, over SPEECH!!!!!!
I used to think of the left as my army, but the fact is that the left today can’t even fight a pillow fight without cheating, and it is distressing to see.
Ian deserves so much better than the flock he is stuck with. Please grow up, people. There are real and serious issues to deal with. And you are failing in every way.
realitychecker
Last point: Some of this conflict with Ten Bears and Che Pasa is on the Cryptocurrency thread and some is on the Manufacturing Violent People thread. I may have left room for some confusion on that, too much jumping around can do that to a person lol.
The bottom line is that they both tried to blatantly lie on me to try and destroy my credibility, and I called them out on it, and they cannot respond, nor will they apologize, so they deserve what they get. I fight back when I am unfairly attacked. And I will never back down when I am in the right.
I wish some more had the left had some moxie, but it looks like you’ve all been neutered.
realitychecker
on the left, not had the left.
Mongo
A friend noted that they weren’t so worried about Trump — they’re afraid of what kind of political leader(s) and government will follow him, however long or short his tenure.
To publicly make the shift to an authoritarian government, it will take another 9-11-style incident. Only a threat from a perceived internal enemy could provide the necessary justifications — and that’s not hard to manufacture.
Incidentally, I enjoy Ian’s analysis and writing. The displays of bullying and narcissism in the Comments, not so much.
realitychecker
If life is all and only about our personal “enjoyment,” then when and who do we expect to take on the difficult challenges?
Webstir
25 out of 53 comments.
47% of the comments in the thread. Of which, ne’ery a one has anything to do with Ian’s post.
As my Dad used to say — someone needs to get outside and blow off some stink.
SnarkyShark
“It is the symbolism of the barbarians having taken over. You can see this with regard to the obsession with Trump’s love for professional wrestling and fast food, all markers of lower-class taste in the eyes of many.”
An example of history rhyming..
“They came in and trashed the house, and its not their house.”
Said in reference to the Clinton’s at the start of their political journey at the Federal level. The insinuation being that the Clinton’s were uncouth hillbillies. I believe this was a big topic of discussion during the ‘cocktail weenie’ times.
Mel
Yeah. Quite the Rattenkampf here. Best stay out of it.
S Brennan
Ian runs an independent blog, he doesn’t take under-the-table money, like so many other “bloggers” did/do, like Josh Marshal did.
Ian is not looking to feather his resume in the hopes of a sweetheart job like EZ-Rah Klien.
So far…and I think it fair to extrapolate forward, Ian can’t be bought. To those who seek to control public thought, Ian is what’s known as an “inconvenient man”.
Those who come here to be the “smartest guy in the room”; those who come here because their blog is a failure; those who come here because they don’t want to start a blog for fear of failure/constant work [I fall in here somewhere]; those who come here to express their aggression in a way that would get them punched out in a bar; should remember, that if you are asinine long enough, Ian will tire of this, as many of this better commenters already have and quit this gig…and that would be a loss for all of us. Well, maybe not all of us, some commenters really need to get punched out…it can be a positive, learning experience.
And I’d remind everybody here, that the US shadow agencies, those that have the self-appointed duty of controlling what people are allowed to think and say monitor these types of blogs 24/7/365. That’s something a Homeland Security officer used to periodically remind of me of…by viewing my Linked-in page and making sure I could see his profile…so calls for others to engage in violent resistance are not only chickenshit, they moronic….or just as likely, the work of agent provocateur.
In closing let me add, that when somebody you’ve verbally sparred a few rounds with comes to see your POV on an issue, complement the person; without the “I told you so crap”. You may make a friend, now, that may only work 1 in 4 times, [some people are here only to be self-congratulating assholes], but it’s a worthy endeavor nonetheless.
Thanks again Ian for running the tightest ship in the business.
Willy
Yet, we now seem to believe that words are the same as actual violence. And that is crazy.
So… I don’t get why politically correct speech such a bad thing.
(Some grimace. Others try to clap their hands over Willy’s mouth, with a few slapping him on the head instead…)
Ché Pasa
The more I think about it, the less I believe that authoritarianism (creeping or otherwise) is the real issue.
Authoritarianism in one form or another is part of our collective (national) and individual DNA. Our government is and has always been authoritarian, though the facade is that it is by consent rather than compulsion, and that it is limited by the constitution and settled law. Well, that depends more on your status and point of view, doesn’t it? Certainly Native Peoples of the Americas, slaves and their descendants, and many others subject to official and informal oppression would dispute the notion of there being a time when the US was less authoritarian than now.
Even those of us who challenge or rebel against authority share many authoritarian instincts and beliefs with our overlords. And most of us will yield to appropriate authority without question.
Yes, surveillance is much easier and more complete now. But with so much data collected on practically everyone, there’s not a lot of use for much of it. Yes, our political class goes along with it more or less eagerly — on the theory that such comprehensive surveillance protects them, when obviously it doesn’t. If anything, it makes them more vulnerable, which may be the point, eh?
No, it’s not authoritarianism itself that is the issue, it’s who exercises authority, how and to what object. And for whose benefit.
Collectively and individually, we have a lot of work to do on resolving that problem.
nihil obstet
I just went for a nice stroll down nostalgia lane. The old posts are listed on the right side of the blog. I went to two years ago, to January 2016. The posts themselves remind me of how good this blog not only is but has been. And then I read the comment sections of a few. Oh, those were the days!!! People commenting on the subject of the post. Discussing the ideas. Using English instead of tribal epithets and slogans. Able to interact without having to skip through comment after comment of verbal abuse and bluster. Let’s keep the vision, friends.
Willy
I’ve heard it said that most people want to be controlled, but only in ways acceptable to them. I recall film showing babushkas tearfully mourning Stalin’s death. Too tough for me (though I wouldn’t mind a babuschka controlling me as long as she was sexy and never once called me Joseph).
It’s common sense that this want varies as much by personality as it does culture. It also seems common sense that the sweet spot for controlling so many different types of people in ways acceptable to most, was in back in the USA during FDR days. Sure, the culture hadn’t matured past racism, but who cared if a few megalomaniacs were stifled. The economy grew just fine with much innovation and America was a can-do nation, unlike today. I’m not sure if the mob needed the Soviet enemy to be at their most purposeful best.
nihil obstet
“most people want to be controlled, but only in ways acceptable to them.” That’s self-contradictory. If I can veto your control when it isn’t acceptable to me, you aren’t controlling me. Effectively this means, “most people want to get what they want, without having to say it.”
The Stephen Miller Band
I think it’s safer and much more accurate to say most people in America have been entrained to be directed and are aimless flounderers when not directed.
This was not always the case. America was once a land of The Self-Reliant. Americans were once fiercely independent and self-sufficient. Industrialization turned the majority into Glorified Cattle who will turn you over to The Nazis if you attempt not to be a Glorified Cattle and instead say NO and encourage others to say NO too.
The Stephen Miller Band
Let’s keep the vision, friends.
The commentary here and everywhere, and all behavior really in America these days, is reflective of the times. Things are degrading everywhere and Trump is symbolic of that degradation. It’s a self-reinforcing spiral down The Shitter.
Yes, keep the vision but understand also that we’re swirling down the toilet bowl into the abyss.
realitychecker
Authoritarianism thrives on cowards, like all the ones chiming in here so far. Clamoring for a safe space where their views won’t be challenged, where slanderers, liars, and rabid Jew-hating Nazi-lovers can feel comfortable and supported. It’s been a very interesting thing to observe.
I keep reading in the media about how everybody wants to be in a place where they just hear voices that agree with what they already believe. Until today, I thought this place would be different, because Ian is different, and so much better than that.
Y’all might be interested to note that my comments are not being moderated.
Ian must be so depressed.
Pearls before swine, Ian. It’s not your fault, brother. It’s the fault of the swine.
THunter
“….where slanderers, liars, and rabid Jew-hating Nazi-lovers can feel comfortable and supported.”
Nice description of Trump and his most ardent supremacists, I mean supporters. Your self righteous spotlight for truth always seems to skip right over this awful truth but legend has it that your powers of observation and deep analysis make you immune from irrational bias. Huh, wonder why?
S Brennan
And here the left reveals it’s schizophrenia on the Obama/Hillary war in Syria. Great they say Trump; glad you want to continue Obama/Hillary’s war in Syria, but you need to escalate like Johnson did in Viet Nam. No I am not making it up, the “left” is calling on Trump to go full bore in Syria.
Rex Tillerson’s Syria Policy Is Sensible—But It’s Fanciful: [because] “The resources the administration is willing to commit are at yawning variance with its ambitious goals.”
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2018/01/tillerson-syria-stanford/550853/
realitychecker
@ TurdHunter
Well, that’s what people on the left are currently calling ‘whataboutism’ lol.
Reads like a lame-o attempt to deflect to Trump instead of dealing with the words of the lying slanderer and Nazi lover that I placed right here for you to contemplate and deal with.
So unimpressive. So low-normal.
You fit right in.
Strangefate
Is there a reason unhinged ranting abusive wackos are allowed to run rampant in the comment section this way? This site used to have a much better class of rightwing d-bag. I guess as goes the country, so goes the blog comments, even the low rent wingers who invest leftwing blog forums are barely cogent anymore. Just misdirected anger and aimless spite spittle-sprayed across the monitor.
Willy
@ nihil
“Most people want to be controlled, but only in ways acceptable to them” is an imperfect phrase that describes a temperamental spectrum, as well as a spectrum of conditions. It’s the only way social animals can be. If the phrase wasn’t true, then enslaving humans would have been far more difficult than it ever was.
A canine example is easier. If you were a circus trainer, would you rather have wild coyotes to train for your act, or Bichon Frise’s? Obviously the dogs are far easier because they enjoy pleasing their masters. A wild coyote just wants its freedom to control its own destiny – it couldn’t care less about pleasing its trainer.
I’ve known people from both temperamental extremes.
The Stephen Miller Band
Good point. Warmongering transcends, or I should say permeates, the Political Duopoly Coin — a Coin owned by The Rich so it’s Heads they win and Tails they win.
Instead of ramping up the Civil War in Syria, Trump & Mattis and his Generals decided to Double Down in Afghanistan. Except this time it’s not under the aegis and guise of Nation Building. They ripped the curtain off. Now it’s just for the sheer fun of it. Pure Terror.
Trained Poodle Lap Dogs fail to see that Left is Right and Right is Left. Those who see it and know it and yet still push the feigned divide as though it’s real, are MALEVOLENT SHITBIRDS.
Afghanistan – U.S. Special Forces Commit Drive-By Murder (Video)
realitychecker
Is there any logical fallacy or dishonest rhetorical device, any factual distortion (you always, you never?), any fevered projection that could not be turned around 180 degrees if its purveyors were to ever look in a mirror or apply it to their own favored tribe, that has not yet been deployed here? I don’t think so.
Look, folks, I don’t care if mentally inferior hyenas indulge their weaknesses like this, but for the love of logic, I know there are some really good minds here who are watching this and remaining silent. And that is what is really depressing.
I know Ian is aware of all these deficiencies. I can only imagine his distress.
Ché Pasa
Is a non-authoritarian government even possible at the national/imperial scale? I’m dubious.
“Consent of the governed” doesn’t preclude authoritarianism and worse. Democracy and republicanism likewise. Most of our systems are hierarchies, and hierarchies are by nature authoritarian.
There are many aspects of our current authoritarian/surveillance state that are alarming. The regime in power now is doing nothing to reduce authoritarianism and surveillance; just the opposite. Our elected representatives are more than happy to go along. Of course the corporate sector and all of the kakistocracy is eager to expand their power, oversight and authority.
We, the Rabble seem to have no influence over these things. None. We can complain all we want, but when push comes to shove, we’re almost powerless.
So the question still is “what then must we do?”
Willy
We have to clearly explain to less-informed others why our representative democracy is broken, why it only functions for the special interest donor class. And these explanations cannot sound the least bit partisan (save that for later). When I’ve tried even wingnuts have tended to agree. But I’m far better at this out in meatspace.
Tom
Well two choices: Continue with the Broken US Constitution that entrenches the Two Party State and corruption.
Or we can do what Turkey did, scrap the Constitution, streamline the Government with a Unicameral Parliament filled by Proportionate Vote of the Parties and elect the President by popular vote at the same time and both get 5 year terms.
The latter allows for third parties to gather steam and put in real changes and more people will then vote.
Hugh
Turkey is a dictatorship. Democratic forms are empty shells if there is no democratic impulse to fill them. During the Cold War, the saying went that the USSR was the most democratic government on the planet, on paper. Even participation is no guarantee of democracy. Insert Emma Goldman’s observation that if voting changed anything they would make it illegal.
What is needed instead is an idea or vision of the society you want to live in. I like to say not just for yourself but for each other. Another way of putting it is what kind of society would you like to live in if you whether you were in the majority or a minority in that society. This gives us a road map of where we want to go, and also is a handy tool to measure our progress toward our goal and hold both ourselves and our leaders accountable.
realitychecker
@ Hugh
Where is the agreement and the cooperation going to come from? Just look at us now lol.
And, the eternal hardest question, how will you get the unwilling to follow the rules, and what will you do about them when they refuse to do so?
The cats are always getting harder to herd. And tame.
Willy
It has been said that Ian and Peter are two of the smartest people around here. Yet hardly anybody is further apart on the issues. Assuming that smart people aren’t only any good at rationalizing themselves into corners, I propose a comment thread where only Ian and Peter can comment. It would be a fight to the death, where the winner takes control of the website.
metamars
@Willy
” But I’m far better at this out in meatspace.”
Fear not! There’s not need to fear, when metamars is here!
OK, that’s an exaggeration. But represent.us has a 6 minute video presentation that sums up the main vector of corruption, pretty nicely (methinks). It’s not partisan, at all. So, you can be a smash hit truth-teller in cyberspace, also, with little effort. (Organizing the masses is, as always, another story.)
See the video “Corruption is legal in America” @ https://act.represent.us/sign/the-problem/
S Brennan
“It has been said that Ian and Peter are two of the smartest people around here.”
I’ve seen never these two people compared as you have done…in 3rd person…which is even weirder Willy??? Indeed, most posts would indicate a contrary set of intellectual attributes to my recollection. Do you mind sharing the link[s] to support your highly original 3rd person conjecture?
realitychecker
Willy’s just playing class clown again. Like the Terminator, that’s all he does, and he won’t stop until we’re dead.
Z
From S Brennan:
Is this the same S Brennan who used to froth at the mouth defending the Clintons when I used to criticize them? Just curious …
Z
Z
Or just a different face of the same one?
Z
Z
In that spirit, let me complement you for not being as stupid as you once were. Baby steps …
Z
Willy
Excellent metamars! I dare anybody to knock that battery off your shoulder.
S. Brennan,
Somebody said that. I’ll search it up and link if desired. In my world, when two smart people enter, only one can leave. Two contrary positions cannot both be correct.
Z
I know what comes next from you, Brennan: unsubstantiated accusations that I supported Pol Pot and demands that I defend myself against them.
Z
S Brennan
Z;
As said in the post you quoted “[some people are here only to be self-congratulating assholes]” and your post today certainly make that point clear.
But for everybody who is not a regular reader here, those that haven’t heard me apologize many of times before, let me do it one more time, not that it’ll ever stop a self-congratulating asshole like Z.
I was wrong about Hillary in 2007, I thought Hillary less right wing than Obama on social issues and while that still remains true, even the Republicans weren’t willing to help Obama [and one presumes his fanboy Z], destroy Social Security, I was not ready for what she did as Secretary of State. Hillary is a war criminal, what she did with Obama’s eager approval was the most disgusting behavior of any SoS…including Kissinger. That said; I challenge Z to show any post where I supported the Honduran, Libyan, Syrian & Ukraine regime change. As anybody who reads my post knows, once Hillary ran the Honduran coup in 2009 she was persona non grata and my posts denouncing her began in 2009
Sadly, Z pretends that Hillary’s actions as Secretary of State were somehow unrelated to Obama being president…and that he knew in advance that she would start a war in Libya, Syria & Ukraine…too bad for Z…he never wrote any of it down and now just asks the reader to believe he was that wise…and that his St. Obama is somehow blameless for Hillary’s evil. That’s quite a basket of bullshit, but Z is persistent and we all know form Goebbels, a lie repeated often enough is eventually believed.
wendy davis
i’d thought to add a comment yesterday, but was busy elsewhere. given the food fights and number of comments, i won’t. but in case no one had brung the news yet, ‘Senate Passes FISA Reauthorization Act, With Help of Democrats/b><', truthdig
the author has the 21 dems outlined in yellow boxes in the roll call yes votes.
https://www.truthdig.com/articles/senate-passes-fisa-reauthorization-act-help-democrats/
well, snowden always said that he’d just wanted to start a conversation, and to the New York Times:
“So long as there’s broad support amongst a people, it can be argued there’s a level of legitimacy even to the most invasive and morally wrong program, as it was an informed and willing decision,” he said.” jayzus.
wendy davis
sorry i blew the bolding.
Tom
@Hugh
Turkey is not a dictatorship. Erdogan is elected and has to build coalitions with other parties to achieve his policies and is ultimately answerable to the electorate, not big business.
Not once has Erdogan flattened a city to maintain power beyond constitutional means, only employing the military to restore order after armed militants took Southern Cities hostage and rapidly moving to restore them once the militants were crushed. Nor has any of his opponents been arrested for disagreeing with him, though those that trafficked arms to the PKK to kill their own citizens or tried to use a coup were legitimately arrested for legitimate crimes.
Everything Erdogan does is well within accepted legal means to keep law and order and protect the territorial sovereignty of his nation.
Z
Brennan,
What can I say, I was wrong: I predicted that you would make unsubstantiated accusations that I supported Pol Pot, but instead you make unsubstantiated accusations that I am an Obama “fan boy”. Not as bad, but just as much of a lie.
Z
Z
Brennan,
The rest of it is a combination of more outright lies and a bushel of misleading bullshit, as always.
Z
Ché Pasa
Authoritarian democracies (representative or otherwise) have long been the “freedom world” standard; they often descend into dictatorships of one form or another while maintaining a facade of “freedom.” Freedom for some, perhaps, but not for others.
Let’s not fool ourselves, that’s the model on which the US was founded, and it’s never not been that way. There’s always been dynamic tension between authoritarianism and liberationism.
I don’t know that there can be an ultimate resolution, but the current trend is toward more authoritarianism (after all, the terrorists will get us otherwise, right?). “Be not afraid” simply doesn’t resonate. Not yet, anyway.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
“Turkey is not a dictatorship.”
I see Erdogan’s pay deposits still arrive on time and in full. 😛
different clue
We need a word to describe the model of governance emerging in Turkey. I suggest Elective Tyrannocracy.
Mongo
Show of hands, honor system: How many of you are participating in the Women’s March today?
Optional: Where are you geographically?
realitychecker
I was going to march, but I couldn’t find my Pussy Hat. I think Trump stole it.
Tom W Harris
That was uncalled for, Senator.
realitychecker
Irony is not for everybody. Mr. Quayle.
For some it’s an acquired taste, for some, well, they just have to have it beaten into them.
Tom W Harris
Ahhh, the good ol’ days…when some of us thought the blue team maybe could be might be worth a goddamn. Clinton raised severe doubts about that, and Odollar made it clear they were just another red team.
Clinton just wanted to be liked and make a ton of post-presidential money. As the ultimate Manchurian candidate, Obama was more ambitious. How he got even one fucking vote outside the black community still floors me. A candidate who openly laughs at his base and breaks his campaign promises during the election is only there to demoralize and destroy the party. He’s now being well paid for his efforts.
Willy
The irony and beatings shall continue until morale improves.
Tom Robinson
Consumer protection budget to zero, diplomacy staff cut in half, environmental protection abandoned, arch-conservative justices appointed all over. Just the same as the Dems would do? Uh, no. Not at all.
different clue
@Tom W Harris,
In election 2008, Obama got a lot of votes from people wanting to prevent 4 or 8 years of a President McCain, and then 8 years of President Palin after that. Think about that. McCain and Palin got me to vote for Obama. It should not be a mystery.
Tom W Harris
@Tom Robinson,
Not “just the same,” but “working in tandem.” When Obama took office, people wanted the Old Deal back. They got foreclosure, and the banks got our tax money – under threat of martial law.
Come on everybody, do The Social Issue Shuffle.
Tom W Harris
@different clue,
I had the opposite reaction – I voted McCain because I thought Obama was so much worse. I still think so.
realitychecker
@ TWH
If that is true, then I wish you would contribute more here, because you know how to think outside the way-too-limited conventional box. A rare and precious thing in theses times, and even in this place. 🙂
Tom W Harris
It’s a perk of getting old – when you’ve seen it all before, several times, tou eventually get the point.
realitychecker
Some of it is age and experience, and some is just willingness to think.
Just keep it up please. Even if it looks increasingly hopeless.
MojaveWolf
@RC, TWH & DC — I hear you all. I bailed on the Dems presidential choice from 2008 onward, pretty much what Tom W & RC both said. (I believe DC did in 2016 as well, if I recall his statements correctly?)
As much as I agreed w/Tom W’s logic in 2008, I could not bring myself to vote for McCain given the general awfulness of his campaign, and the whole “Drill Baby Drill” crap. To the Greens my protest vote went.
In 2016, my thoughts were best summed up by one of the posters in the election night open thread on Naked Capitalism, (I think it was a Julia? or maybe a Chi-something?) who said “My greatest fear is that one of them will win.”
I was going to vote Green again until Bernie/Tulsi became an official write-in in Cali, and … honestly, that was more than a protest vote. With no hope whatsoever, I was genuinely praying for some sort of miracle vote-wave to keep either of the main party candidates out. (I actually can make a better case in my own head for voting Trump than HRC, even in retrospect w/him being at or beyond my worst-case scenario in a variety of respects, and that is even tho I think Hillary is probably a well-meaning person and Trump is . . . not . . . but I got no quarrel w/who anyone voted for because the two main choices were so awful; it was liking asking Oberyn of Dorne to choose between Tywin and Cersei Lannister)
This is why I can’t join or support “the resistance”–they seem to think bringing back the same people who got us Trump in the first place is effective “resistance.” NO. I want my resistance to be real, and worthwhile.
Willy
About the only thing most everyday people have in common these days is a growing feeling of powerlessness, and an increasing need to take it out on some other entity or team. Not enough of them know where that feeling is coming from – that they have no power because the republic is broken and then the entire culture as well.
Is it being suggested here that they need to discover first, that the other “entity or team” which they’ve chosen as The Enemy, is actually filled with other “growing feeling of powerlessness” people just like themselves, and that the true enemy actually lies elsewhere?
Hugh may be right. Instead of repeating the same things over and over again a better idea might be to form a focused and credible vision of where most people would want to go.
different clue
@Tom W Harris,
Here is what I expected from a President McCain. A near-immediate war with Iran, which he had been calling for for years. He has been seething with unrequited hate and rage ever since Vietnam, mainly against the protesters and the peace movement. He would have launched a war against Iran to show how we could have won the war against Vietnam, if it hadn’t been for those meddling kids. So that’s what I voted against more than anything else.
And of course we are getting the deregulationary approach under Trump that we would have gotten under Palin, so that part of it is meaningless anyway. But still, war with Iran was delayed and perhaps prevented if Mattis , McMasters, McCain and etc. can be prevented from getting their desired war even still, even after all this time.
So I don’t regret my vote-for-Obama the first time. The second time I voted for Anderson ( the “other” white mormon).
different clue
@Mojave Wolf,
In 2016, I voted for Trump. I voted FOR Trump. I want to make that very clear to every piece of Clintonite filth and Obamazoid garbage who might be reading this site. Because of sewage like YOU! I voted FOR Trump.
I read the sewage which all those fecal clintonites wrote about Sanders over at The Confluence. I will not forget, and I will not forgive you scum. Ever. EVER.
That was not the only reason, of course. I voted aGAINST Hillary’s desire to topple Assad in order to install her beloved Cannibal Liver Eating Jihadis in power in Syria. I voted aGAINST Hillary’s desire to entrench the NaziNazi Banderazi coup regime in Ukraine and her desire to start a nuclear war against Russia. Things which all the Pink Pussie Hat garbages all supported and voted for.
So yes. I voted FOR Trump. For TRUMP.
#NotOneMoreClinton
#NeverEver
#NotMyResistance
realitychecker
@ dc
Keep that fire burning, brother. ((dc))
hvd
I agree with DC but also agree with MW. As much as I defend Trump against the trumped up Russophobic charges against him as well as some of the other nonsense spewed against his “style” and the “style” of his followers there is just no way that I can defend his governance. Court appointees are abominable (yes I can’t defend recent Dem appointees but Trump’s are really really bad). His administrative actions suck (FCC is one example and yes I know it is occasioning some not insignificant blowback that may be for the good), same, including parenthetical, applies to AG’s pot war. Although I think defense of American workers is long past due I think the way DT is going about it, his idea of immigration reform, tariffs on washing machines and solar, etc. are laughably bad. The best that can be said of his foreign policy is its a shambles, a little less bellicose perhaps than the neocons but an incredibly dangerous mass of confusion. All this was as obvious before the election as was Obama’s mendacity before his. As Hugh has constantly reminded us – we are only allowed to choose between shit sandwiches.
Can’t get on board with those of you who would try to defend the indefensible in Trump, but can hope, all evidence to the contrary, that there will be blowback sufficient to turn the tide.
realitychecker
The best way to view Trump, IMO, is that he shows the vulnerability of the duopoly, and he simultaneously gets us closer to the point where public anger might reach a critical mass.
But I also think the pushback on insane political correctness and open immigration lunacy is a good thing, through and through. On trade and foreign policy, he is playing a jiu jitsu game with some intractable problems, I think, and the results will take some time to sort out.
different clue
@realitychecker,
Thank you for the kind words. I will now proceed to disappoint you by saying yet again that I am not likely to get violent nor will I do anything outside the strict letter of the law.
That said, I think people might want to figure out what “violent non-violence” might look like. Violent-in-spirit ends and goals pursued by oh-so-technically non-violent means. Uncivil Obedience. Passive Obstructionism. Things like that.
@htv,
I find very little Trumpublican rules or ways or means to be defensible. I didn’t expect that I would. I realized that voting for Trump was voting for years of pain and decay. I felt it had to be done to keep the Evil Clintonites out of the office, and to break the emerging Clinton Dynasty the way Trump appears to have broken or at least frozen the Bush Dynasty.
We will spend the next four or eight years marching along a Road of Broken Glass. The only thing which will redeem all that pain and misery is the effective extermination of the Clintonite Party and the Obamazoid Party from existence and from off the face of the earth.
That way a space might be opened up for legitimate left or leftish or liberadical or Newer Deal or other such parties to emerge.
If we can’t exterminate the Clintonites and the Obamazoids from existence, then all this pain will have been for nothing.
realitychecker
@ dc
It does not “disappoint” me that you abjure violence. It should never be considered unless it is forced upon you. Then it becomes irrational to NOT consider it.
It is a sign of the times that one cannot suggest a conversation that might involve talk about violent resistance without being characterized as urging immediate violent action. We are a binary society now, only absolutes get considered, everything in the middle is considered too complex to deal with. Our brains are being conditioned and shaped to be useless for anything except corporate purposes.
I would submit that maybe the conversation should start with a consideration of what the very concept of freedom means to us, how much of it we have a right to expect, at what point we are outraged enough to consider physical resistance to its constantly shrinking primacy in our thoughts, etc.
It’s needs to be a big conversation, but folks are fearful to even start it. That is the best indicator of how much freedom we have already lost.
Willy
The national trajectory would have probably continued the same with Hillary. Bernie’s people were hoping with him it would have been less so. But with him as president and a republican congress the tribal noise would have been deafening. More of the same but louder – no real change.
Could you expand on how Trumps presidency with a Republican congress is getting people “closer to the point where public anger might reach a critical mass”?
realitychecker
Who did your lobotomy?
Willy
It’s needs to be a big conversation, but folks are fearful to even start it.
I wonder why.
realitychecker
Willy, you forfeited your right to interact with me in a serious way a long time ago, and you can’t even be honest about the why of that. But you’ve been relentless.
Pursue your supposed learning journey with others. I can’t take you seriously, so I won’t waste any more time responding to you.
Tom Robinson
@Tom W Harris Am I understanding that you think that consumer protection also would have been gutted by Dems, environmental protection would have been wiped out and its destruction planned by a coal company CEO advising the president, net neutrality tossed out, national monuments cut way back? So somehow the lack of penalties for Wall Street, or the disgraceful destruction of Libya, or the continued chickenshit drone wars are so awful that we might as well let Trump do the same AND screw the environment, consumers, net neutrality, and parks? What kind of bleak values are those?
I’m not arguing for Hillary; she was a terrible candidate. But I am wondering when someone here is going to acknowledge just how awful and antiquated Trump is, especially on climate change, and how he and his party are far more destructive than their opposition on many domestic issues.
Tom W Harris
@Tom Robinson:
I don’t disagree with any of that. Trump and the Rs are much worse on domestic issues than the Ds. But on the economic issues (medical care, SS, e.g.) they work as a team.
And on foreign policy, the Ds are much worse. They are the drivng force behind the anti-Russian crusade which could destroy humanity.