I’ve been saying it mattered a lot for quite some time, but, finally, some numbers:
Foreign policy debates rarely determine U.S. presidential elections, although polling suggests that 2024 might be an exception. Nationwide, nearly 4 in 10 voters (38 percent) say they are less likely to vote for President Biden because of his handling of the war in Gaza, according to a July 2024 Century Foundation/Morning Consult poll of 1,834 registered U.S. voters. Many core constituencies—including independents, swing state likely voters, and Democratic Party activists—are angry at Biden’s unqualified support for the Israeli assault on Gaza.
The issue isn’t that people who hate genocide will vote Trump, he’s pro-genocide as well. Instead it’s that they will stay home or vote third party and that if they do hold their nose and vote Democratic, they’re less likely to donate or, more importantly, to volunteer.
In a close election, and Biden’s best case is a close election, that matters.
To put it simply, Biden decided that mass-murdering Palestinians in service to AIPAC and Zionism was more important than being re-elected, and in affect that all the things he claims to care about which might help Americans are less important than helping Israel commit genocide.
That’s a choice, just like his choice to run again even though he’s clearly in serious decline and obviously can’t act as President for another four years.
Biden has chosen to lose the election, and anyone who blames anyone but Biden for his loss is full of it.
Willy
They can choose. They can choose between a moderate genocide, or a far worse genocide plus a fascist dictatorship plus a national abortion ban plus quickened climate disaster plus quickened late-stage capitalism plus quickened Chinese world domination plus lawless persecutorial political gangs plus all kinds of basic progressive human rights eliminated plus many more bits of nastiness. Seems like an easy choice to me. But what the hell do I know?
Ian Welsh
A lot of people have a hard time getting motivated by the “lesser genocide.”
Similar to “Stalin or Hitler?”
Anonymous
There’s no evidence outside of the mind of American liberals that Genocide Joe is the lesser evil. He has a 50 year track record of being a bagman for the most predatory corporate interests around. He already out-Zionist a visiting Israeli prime minister 40 years ago. Life long racist, abuser of women, liar/plagiarist, white collar criminal. .His administration intentionally pushed nuclear armed Russia into war in the Ukraine and is responsible for the likely death of half a million Ukrainian men dragooned off to the killing fields with a few days of training.
He is shipping bombs to Israel everyday while Israel has cut aid transit to basically zero since the not ”major” invasion of Rafah, so the lesser genocide will turn into near total genocide in about a month more. He blocked any kind of UN and ICJ action for a permanent ceasefire and keeps lying to give Israel cover to commit more genocide. He’s also enabling the continuation of the two currently active genocides in Sudan and Congo, by giving free reign to the UAE and Rwanda ( with significant profit going to Israeli businessmen in both cases).
And it’s clear that he is no longer mentally competent. Yet this is all that the Democrats can offer us to prevent the return of the “Orange Hitler”? If they’re this unserious about the alleged threat of Trump, why should I take them seriously?
Ian – read Domenico Losordo’s “Stalin: History and Critique of a Black Legend”. There’s a reason why Stalin and Mao continue to be extremely popular in their own countries. They built the foundation that their countries’ current independence and prosperity is built on. They certainly made mistakes, perhaps even ones that can be construed as monstrous given the numbers involved. But they’re morally far superior to the likes of Hitler, Biden, Churchill, Clinton, Johnson, and frankly all politicians in DC (honestly the only one I can think of who isn’t morally terrible is Massie and he’s a libertarian loon).
Willy
There’s a reason why Stalin and Mao continue to be extremely popular in their own countries. They built the foundation that their countries’ current independence and prosperity is built on.
Thankfully, the dead can’t speak. But seriously, where are the mega posters of Putin with Stalin waving to Red Square, or Xi with Mao waving to Tiananmen Square? Would such proud displays not be “extremely popular”?
In the USA, talk of those two being conflated with “independence and prosperity” is why the authoritarian left will never gain traction outside of the very tiny percentage of dedicated Marxists, without a total economic and civil societal collapse.
There are reasons why “hope and change” became a stagnant continuation of W’s economic policies. Where Stalin and Mao notoriously captured power for themselves to claim total supremacy over hundreds of millions who they deemed inferior to their own intellectual perfection, Obama and Biden capitulated to their chosen ‘elites’ and ‘experts’. I suspect their own humility regarding not knowing everything there is to know (IMHO, a saner viewpoint) was targeted and abused by a shadow PTB. And only recently have they been figuring out that those experts may not have been right.
But this post isn’t about that. It’s about allowing an authoritarian government which would be the exact economic opposite of “Stalin and Mao” to gain total power. You appear to be saying that the reason why Trump is so popular, is that he’s less racist, less abusive of women, less of a liar, less of a plagiarist, less of a white collar criminal then Biden is? You seriously think the voter will buy that?
anon
Most of us here are against genocide regardless of who the victims are but the truth is that the majority of humans are tribal and mainly care about their own tribe. The problem for Genocide Joe is that this isn’t 1950s America. There is a large enough immigrant and Arab population in key swing states and they don’t like seeing their people killed by American-made bombs.
Biden would still win among the majority of non-Arab Americans and Democrats despite the Palestinian genocide IF his brain wasn’t literally melting and he could still speak in coherent sentences. That’s the low bar set for American politicians and Biden can’t even meet that.
Even with dementia, Parkinson’s, or whatever he has, he’s too selfish to ever want to let go of the power that he’s spent his career trying to obtain. If he does drop out it will be because he was forced to do so behind the scenes by Democratic donors and power players. The man has always been rotten and power hungry to the core and that will never change no matter how little working brain matter he has left.
Dan Kelly
‘Israel’ is the only foreign ‘country’ named in the GOP platform.
I’ll repeat that: Israel is the only foreign country named in the GOP platform.
“The party platform emphasizes the Abraham Accords, the Iron Dome, and calls for European spending on defense.
The tenth chapter of the platform delineates Trump and his party’s vision for foreign relations. Israel stands out as the only country explicitly mentioned as one the US will support, with the platform stating, “We will stand with Israel, and seek peace in the Middle East.” In an exclusive interview with Israel Hayom several months ago, Trump said he “was the best president in the history of Israel,” and that he will continue to be if elected. It appears the Trump administration also aims to expand upon the Abraham Accords. “We will rebuild our Alliance Network in the Region to ensure a future of Peace, Stability, and Prosperity,” the platform declares.
Notably, unlike other nations, Israel is not singled out as a country expected to fully fund its defense expenses. “Republicans will strengthen Alliances by ensuring that our Allies must meet their obligations to invest in our Common Defense and by restoring Peace to Europe,” the platform states regarding NATO allies. This stance is not applied to Israel.
https://www.israelhayom.com/2024/07/15/israel-only-foreign-country-mentioned-in-gop-platform/
Thomas Massie recently said he’s the only congress critter who doesn’t have an AIPAC (Jewish Zionist) handler. He and Swanson food empire and media darling Tuck Carlson then went on to say they both like Israel.
Sam
“They choose between a moderate genocide, or a far worse genocide”
What ridiculous nonsense. I would prefer to not lower myself to personal attacks, but I think it must be said that saying one has to chose between “moderate genocide and far worse genocide” makes you the greater evil. “Moderate genocide, or a far worse genocide,” as if there was such a distinction anyway.
And so it goes with Democrats in general. For decades they have reduced their main argument to, “vote for the lesser evil.” Now they’ve completely run out of rope and can’t even hold themselves up as the lesser evil. Such a demented, soulless ghoul as the Democratic Party can’t even be reasoned with. It’s for this reason I think there is no way Genocide Joe will be replaced.
DMC
When the truth finally comes out about Biden, it will make Trump’s crimes look like parking tickets. Fifty years of utter corruption and selling his ass to the highest bidder will finally put “old handsome Joe” in perspective. That and the fact that Clarence Thomas is only on the Supreme Court because Biden made it ok for a handful of quisling Democrats to vote for him. And frankly, the 8 years of Bush 2 were rather worse than than the 4 years of Trump, Bush started wars of choice that killed about 2 million people. Trump, for all his very many faults, is simply less bellicose than Biden or the Dems generally, who seem intent on sleepwalking us into WW3.
StewartM
Sam
as if there was such a distinction anyway.
There is a distinction. Take the persecution of Christians by Roman emperors. It could be brutal at times, but was always sporadic and local. Some emperors pursued it; others didn’t. Christianity survived because of that.
Now let’s compare that to the persecution of every other religion by later Christian emperors. By contrast, it was widespread and sustained. That’s why there’s no Cult of Hercules, Cult of Isis, Roman paganism, Cult of Mithras, and others anymore.
Neither one of them is “good”. But you have a chance with the first.
Sam
‘Neither one of them is “good”. But you have a chance with the first.’
Disagree. Turns out the ability for human beings to delude themselves is bottomless. That doesn’t mean however, that deluding one’s self to such a degree does not slide into complicity.
Trump’s genocide will be “worse.” That’s supposed to be some given, just like your Christian Emperors. For one thing I doubt it’s true (all of Biden’s red lines have proven to be false for one thing), or even possible given the reality on the ground.
At any rate my guess is there aren’t many Biden supporters willing to admit they’re prepared to trade the genocide of the Palestinians for Trump’s loss. Because they aren’t willing to admit it, they come up with half baked justifications such as “moderate genocide, or a far worse genocide.”
No, it’s a bargain with the devil, and it’s called complicity.
Soredemos
@Willy
This comment is more of a strike against the Democrats than anything I could ever say.
The absolute state of modern American Liberalism. Just complete moral, ethical, intellectual, and political freefall. It’s a husk of an ideology. Doesn’t mean whatever replaces it will be better or even any good, it probably won’t be, but Liberalism is an utterly exhausted husk with no ability to resist.
sara
Over at Naked Capitalism many of the commenters are making JD Vance out to be a combination of Huey Long and Joe Bageant.
And Oren Cass is being branded as a ‘non-traditional’ conservative voice who has Vance’s ear, and this evidently is a good thing. Not sure how Cass is ‘non-traditional’ when he’s a creature of Bain Capital and Mitt Romney:
https://archive.ph/XMdGC#selection-1679.0-1873.147
“In 2018, Cass published The Once and Future Worker, a broad re-evaluation of American society, economics, and public policy that earned widespread coverage and praise across the political spectrum.
Let’s take a look at that:
“Which is more important? Pristine air quality, or well-paying jobs that support families? Unfettered access to the cheapest labor in the world, or renewed investment in the employment of Americans? Smoothing the path through college for the best students, or ensuring that every student acquires the skills to succeed in the modern economy? Cutting taxes, expanding the safety net, or adding money to low-wage paychecks?
The renewal of work in America demands new answers to these questions. If we reinforce their vital role, workers supporting strong families and communities can provide the foundation for a thriving, self-sufficient society that offers opportunity to all.”
https://archive.ph/FzZ9K
Preventing ‘unfettered access to the cheapest labor in the world’ is a worthy goal, but of course Cass, Vance et al are all surrounded by cheap labor lovers. And the system itself depends on cheap labor, and that can only change if major structural changes are made to the political economy. And there is absolutely no talk of that. It’s just more laissez-faire nonsense.
So the ‘cheap labor’ will continue, and a bunch of half-assed wall building and security theater will continue, further enriching the class that funds these guys.
‘Smoothing the path through college for the best students’ is an appropriate dig at the smug ‘liberal’ (neoliberal) class,.
‘Cutting taxes, expanding the safety net, or adding money to low-wage paychecks?’ This is left intentionally vague and misleading. They obviously want to cut taxes on the already wealthy and don’t want to expand the social safety net. We all agree adding money to low-wage paychecks is vital. But they want middle class voters to think the tax cuts are aimed at them. More trickle-down nonsense.
‘Pristine air quality, or well-paying jobs that support families?’ The word ‘pristine’ is doing a lot of work here, eh?
“The renewal of work in America!” Uh oh:
https://inv.tux.pizza/watch?v=J1-XeuEGpTc
Soredemos
I’m not even convinced Biden is doing a ‘moderate’ genocide (what an insane concept). How could a Trump administration plausibly escalate further? Have the US Navy directly take part in air and missile strikes? Biden is already giving diplomatic cover, supplies essentially unlimited weapons, and uses the US military to try and shield Israel from repercussions for its actions from Iran and Yemen.
Also, it’s very likely the genocide will be substantially completed by November, certainly by the time Trump takes over (his win is probably inevitable at this point). Israel is moving into the end game of just starving and dehydrating the strip into oblivion. The actual bodycount so far is probably up to a quarter million; the number is going to snowball soon at the current pace (it’s also breathtaking to watch them openly wage war against the UN itself. There’s no longer even the pretense that they aren’t knowingly targeting UN designated schools and shelters. Israel openly declares UNRWA an enemy of the state).
Willy
@Sam
Because I chose Mussolini and you chose Hitler, when there was only Mussolini and Hitler to choose from, then I’m far worse. Okay. Or maybe you really chose Hindenburg because you alone can change the rules for everyone else because you alone control the reality. Wish I was that powerful.
I vastly preferred Bernie but the PTB made sure he wouldn’t make it on the ticket. But I did see a glimmer of hope when Biden, rumored to be corrigibly labile, appointed Bernie to a fairly important and powerful committee. And please note that I said “glimmer”, and not “hope and change”.
Wouldn’t it be a better use of your time to offer ideas about how we eliminate the “lesser evil” thing from politics, maybe starting with how we can get corrupt and corporate powerdonors out of politics, the very people fucking things up for everybody, so that the “feckless Dems” might be more open to empowering humanistic hoper changers? Or hell, how about starting a more humanistic hoper changer political party which is actually effective, for that matter?
When the truth finally comes out about Biden, it will make Trump’s crimes look like parking tickets.
Be one helluvan acting job. Trump’s an obvious pathologically lying malignant narcissist. If Biden’s vastly worse, then his entire stuttery ‘not all that bright’ ‘go along to get along’ empathetic performance should win him an Oscar. And rewrite Robert Hare’s book about psychopathy I’d think. As you’ve implied, normals would then only ever find it impossible to the divine good guys from the nefarious, before it’s too late, going forward. If that’s the only possibility we have, then humanity’s fucked and we’re all just wasting our time in places like this.
Willy
StewartM,
Didn’t see your comment there. Your logic is as usual, most excellent, and your understanding of reality, really real.
elkern
Biden “knows” that the Democratic Party can’t survive without AIPAC money. That *might* no longer be true, but it was true for most of Biden’s adult years (and particularly since Reagan killed off the Unions which were once the main source for Party finances). Worse, Neocons have infiltrated the Democratic Party and the entire US Foreign Policy arena, so there are no voices around him to encourage any other position.
Hart Liss
Relevant only to the extent that it’s getting trump elected because the people with the money, power and influence are opposed to Biden because he didn’t support Israel’s war crimes enough.
Maybe if people had been realistic when it mattered…
Whatever. That ship sailed. Trump’s getting reelected either by an Electoral College win (probably helped by actual voter fraud by Republican officials), shit pulling and/or rioting on 1/6/2025 and/or SCOTUS putting party first.
(And to clear, the Democrats are complicit in all this.)
I’m calling it: GOP W across the board: White House and both Houses of Congress. Hold your anger til January. I’ll gladly eat crow if warranted at the correct time.
Oakchair
4 in 10 voters say they are less likely to vote for President Biden because of his handling of the war in Gaza,
—–
This does not mean those voters disapprove of the genocide, they could disapprove of it not happening violently enough.
—-
selling his ass to the highest bidder will finally put “old handsome Joe” in perspective.
—
The perspective being that he is the same as 95% of politicians, bankers, executives, mangers, medical researchers, government agencies, police etc.
We are dealing with a systemic problem, in a dystopian society.
The Dem establishment/DNC has known about Biden’s Parkinson’s/dementia for at least a year and a half. That is a reason they canceled the debates in the Dem primary. This whole episode was chosen by the DNC. We can all speculate on why.
Warvigilent
Really think everyone has gone off it with the biden decline narrative. When its not contradictory ( bidens brain is melting out but hes also the nefarious manipulator crime king) or backed up by little evidence ( a few gaffs from a person who has a lifelong speech impediment and was never a good orator, come on we made dumb bush jokes but never this far). Biden has been on multiple international and national tours and misssions speaking with foreign leaders and nato. All of it would be impossible for anyone on this blog to accomplish . He recently took a cognitive test (a little more serious than trumps) and it showed no evidence of claimed decline, note that the media failed to report. Almost like its a major propaganda point that biden is losing it since he was elected, but I can see no change since then.
Dont get me wrong, i know biden is a centerist democrat who pushed major bullshit like credit scores and student loans. But two things ,don’t dismiss someone you dislike or oppose and refuse to see their strengths( we did this with trump ) and Bidens carreer has sucked but he is arguably the most left wing president for thirty years. lots of flashback to 8 years ago with hillary CLEARLY losing it and going into decline, yet 8 years later she is fine , almost like it was a lot of propaganda.
mago
Nothing to add to the discussion except that it doesn’t matter what I think or not, although it’s worth considering that if a mosquito bites a horse’s ass in Colorado, the kick could hit down to Oz, or so that’s what some physicists posit.
Greater or lesser evils? Define the terms. Is there such a thing as evil, relative or absolute?
Ha ha. Screwed we are. Over under sideways down.
Mark Level
Nominee for dumbest comment of the thread:
@Sam
Because I chose Mussolini and you chose Hitler, when there was only Mussolini and Hitler to choose from, then I’m far worse. Okay. Or maybe you really chose Hindenburg because you alone can change the rules for everyone else because you alone control the reality. — Willie
If you are willing to take a Sophie’s choice between Mussolini or Hitler, Biden or Trump, you are already a trapped rat in the corner of a cage waiting for your own execution. Nobody with a working brain supports pieces of shite like this, the end game (literally, your death & an eternal fascist future) is the same.
Nietszche took his concept of Slave Morality from Plato’s transcribed claims of Socrates’ purported teaching. He brought them into the late 19th century world, a place where the “Great Game” of dominating “Central Asia” to achieve world power, per certain nut cases in Britain (see Peter Hopkirks’ The Great Game: The Struggle for Empire in Central Asia) was the approved Narrative.
It is Slave Morality to support, defend or admire the “Masters” that impoverish, steal from you, send your children to die in pointless (& failed) wars, deny you affordable health care (sic) because TPTB give you a “choice” between 98.9% & 98.8%. Grow the fuck up!!
They’re burning down & genociding (yeah spellcheck doesn’t like that verb, but fug it) Palestinians because they can’t surrender their (already failed) concepts of “Control.”
Without getting too New Agey all the hate, violence & death they foment will come back to “their” people, so don’t be a slave & support them, or you (& your children, grandchildren, etc.) will pay the price.
Say NO. Get the fuck out, or fight these muthafuckas, don’t be a Capo, don’t create your own elevator to the gallows. Liber AL vel Legis reminds us that “The slaves shall serve.” Don’t collaborate with them to kill more humanity, a monstrosity that will lead back to you as a part thereof.
bruce wilder
I can rarely be sure when Willy is in full-on Troll mode, but I think this might be it.
The kind of political brand management that gets Willy’s vote reminds me of family-owned independent restaurants that feature photographs of the dishes on offer, but the photos, never accurate representations, are now faded, stained and tattered. If you order the dish after seeing the displayed picture, even truly bad food cannot disappoint. What expectations can you have, but of colorless, tasteless, stale . . . ?
There was a time when the U.S. pose in the Middle East was that of the honest broker, reconciling the parties in conflict to mutual tolerance and respect. A better angel encouraging statesmen to pursue peace. A noble calling for a noble nation leading the world to higher ground, to sunlit uplands. Underneath, there was rivalry with the Soviets and a raw grab at natural resources to fuel the good life the golden billion. But it was a believable and flattering cover story for the pursuit of genuine national interests, even the conflicting visions of national interest left the country’s foreign policy cross-eyed and blurry.
That image was exchanged for the righteous and vengeful pursuit and extermination of the pure evil of terrorism. That has gone a long way, but may have run out of credibility, for the lack of credible effect and a surfeit of lying and shameless hypocrisy. Any reasonable concept of a national interest has been lost along the way toward perpetual war to create insatiable demand for the over-priced products of the military-industrial complex.
The foreign policy recipes prepared by the cooks in Chef Biden’s kitchen have lost all rationale. The ingredients are spoiled, the spices are stale.
It may be that the diners are still attracted to bloody rare beef, but it is hard to believe that served raw, it won’t result in food poisoning. Trump has a half-baked concept of the national interest, but globalist Biden has nothing. Nothing, but an apparent determination to provoke wars with Russia, China and Iran that the U.S. can only lose. It may not his own determination; it may originate with the Deep State and the Deep State will not be on the ballot. It never is. By design.
someofparts
If you figure, as I do, that the main objective of the Democrats was to stop Bernie, then they have been successful and need to stop being such crybabies. All of their donors prefer Trump to Bernie, so here we are. It’s odd how persistent the impulse is to imagine, if only for an instant, that we can replace our hideous rulers with someone better, until reality reasserts itself and one remembers that this isn’t a democracy anymore, so replacing repulsive rulers with good ones isn’t an option.
Anonymous
The last 9 months have been extremely clarifying on where people I’ve tracked for years really stand. Not just the online people, but the complete wall of silence amongst my family and friends on what’s happening in Gaza. This level of complicity goes far being the Germans of WWII. The Germans could still claim that they didn’t know what’s happening in the front and that in a time of total war, they had to support their national government. What’s the excuse for still supporting Biden (or Trump or RFKJr)?
The lessons of 1914 and beyond remain the same. Scratch a liberal and find a Fascist. They may decry the problems in the current system but when push comes to shove, 9 out of 10 will side with fascism and their misbegotten sense of security over any sense of justice for all. There is nothin worse than genocide and an administration that is willing to fully support the most obvious and best documented case of genocide ever, will do the same to the rest of us if any one of us has something that their masters desire or have just become too annoying.
It doesn’t matter how make times you point towards Biden’s actual track record and the logical consequences of his administration’s complete support of the Zionist Entity. The liberals will always tell you that the horrors they imagine in their head is worse than the horrors I see coming out of Gaza and DC everyday. And if you press on you will see them getting very very nasty and personal about it. And that a future without US/Western hegemony will be so much worse than with it, nevermind that their countries are all built on slavery, near total genocide of tens or hundreds of indigenous peoples, and land stealing – and even with the profits from those centuries of plunder, are increasingly failing to provide a minimally decent life within their borders.
different clue
If I didn’t suspect that there may still be some things ” at stake” based on which brand name candidate wins the election, my sense of maliciously gleeful hand-rubbing schadenfruede would be pure and complete.
The Inner Democrats put Biden in the position from which he can now threaten the Inner Democrats’ prezelection victory by refusing to step down. Never! Ever! It was Obama and the Inner Democrats who conspired to engineer Sanders out of the 2020 primaries and engineer Biden into the nomination. One is tempted to say ” they have made their bed of nails, now let them lie on it.” If Biden ends up being The One, and he runs and loses, will the Inner Dems and any/everyone else finally stop taking Obama’s calls? Will Obama be excluded from all the right political social circles? Will he live out his life in lonely splendor, counting his billions of dollars ( for a job well done) in his lovely mansion on the “White” side of Nantucket Island, or in his Command Post Aeirie in the Greater Beltway Metropolitan Area?
In the end, I will end up voting for whichever candidate I think will do less damage over the next four years, and will permit 4 years of relative semi-peace and semi-quiet in which survivalists may make their survivalist preparations. SERious Leftists will call me “slave morality” for that pragma-survival outlook, ” and that’s okay” in the deathless words of Barak Soetero Oblabla.
Willy
Mark Level and bruce wilder,
So where you gonna be posting your ‘leftist’ morality comments when Trump is king?