Gays dropped their votes to Dems significantly from 2008 levels. Hispanics voted for Democrats at about 2008 levels despite horrible policies against them. You only have leverage if you are willing to defect in a high profile fashion.
Gays dropped their votes to Dems significantly from 2008 levels. Hispanics voted for Democrats at about 2008 levels despite horrible policies against them. You only have leverage if you are willing to defect in a high profile fashion.
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Cujo359
I think there’s another possible explanation. The Defense Dept. has been practically begging that Congress end this craziness. Every time they lose another highly skilled service member to this policy, they become that much less effective. It’s hard enough to maintain force levels right now.
guest
“I think there’s another possible explanation. The Defense Dept. has been practically begging that Congress end this craziness. Every time they lose another highly skilled service member to this policy, they become that much less effective. It’s hard enough to maintain force levels right now.”
That makes no sense at all. If the DOD wanted to stopped kicking out gays, they would not have been “asking” and breaking whatever few protections DADT was supposed to provide to gay service members. Now gay service members will not even have that escape hatch when the harrassment gets really bad. But whatever. Gays in the military are pretty much like gays in the Republican party. You can have them, I ain’t gonna cry for them. Especially those nasty lesbian types who go into the military or police just to be big abusive assholes like the abusive asshole men they wish they were born as.
jcapan
Why is this a great day for America? “Because… Gays and Lesbians ought to be able to kill brown people too.”
Morocco Bama
So true, jcapan, so true.
Liberation, American style. A Hat Tip to the Beastie Boys. You have to fight….for your right…..to slaughter…and consume, and dominate, and….fill in the rest.
anon2525
You only have leverage if you are willing to defect in a high profile fashion.
And even then, groups only have leverage if they are not opposing the rentier/monopoly/protected industries. Whether DADT is revoked or not will have no effect on the private, single-source contracts that weapons makers and military contractors (mercenaries) get, for example.
The Raven
I think money may have something to do with it, too. If the Federal stance on immigration softens, there are large business and groups of organized small businesses who will have to pay their workers more. (The DREAM Act wouldn’t do this, but it might pave the way.) From the viewpoint of a corrupt Congress repealing DADT has the nice property of not costing anyone any money.
Cujo359
You’re talking nonsense. The President hasn’t changed that policy. Until he does, it’s in place.
South Carolina is home of the Junior Mint
Not to be crass, butour muilitary is the only home grown manufactured commodity left in the US is and now there are a whole new source of a commodity to sell to foriegn countries without a meaningful military.
S Brennan
Very very true post, it’s humorous laughing at fools who don’t understand why Obama treats them like shit when they love him soooo much. Great observation Ian.
Notorious P.A.T.
“Hispanics voted for Democrats at about 2008 levels despite horrible policies against them. ”
What horrible policies? Obama signed a law making it a little harder for credit card companies to screw people, and he lowered everyone’s taxes slightly.
*sarcasm off*
S Brennan
South Carolina…Mint understands something most liberals don’t, if you cut DoD*, you need to get ready for losing a lot of good paying jobs. When government spending gets cut, the money saved isn’t saved, it’s handed out as tax cuts to the well connected wealthy.
Rev. Ralph Abernathy was a very great man, who was as good as his word and his words were both good and truthful. But…he was wrong when he led a protest of Apollo 11 on the eve of the launch and asking “If our nation can spend … twenty billion dollars to put a man on the moon, it can spend billions of dollars to put God’s children on their own two feet right here on earth.” Because both the space program and the war on poverty were cut simultaneously, no space monies ever helped one poor child…instead the funds were reserved to help the wealthy become ever richer.
A political leadership that will put a man on the moon is far more likely to battle poverty than a nation a nation that sits on it’s ass and hands out tax cuts to rich folks. If you want to destroy decent jobs and industrial capacity nationwide go for it…but don’t be stupid and think that money is going to be put to better use. Just blindly cutting the budget by some X% because you don’t care about notching up unemployment another 10-17%, or whether you’re the douch bag who drives the final nail into this empire…well, brother…you can count me out.
I’d end these expensive/stupid wars and redirect the spending within DoD and slowly work the DoD budget down as subsidized industries are stood up.
And because so many are clueless about how things really work, cheaper labor is NOT why other countries are out competing us, if that was so Germany would be in the crapper…it’s not and it’s labor is far more expensive. It’s industries are heavily subsidized and given preferential tax treatment over other business that rely on ponzi schemes.
Notorious P.A.T.
Wow, Guest, you went from “had me” to “lost me” in record time.
Petro
@South Carolina is home…
“…commodity to sell to foriegn countries without a meaningful military.”
And, hey! even if it’s somewhat meaningful, we’ll be happy to supplant it!
anon2525
Obama signed a law making it a little harder for credit card companies to screw people, and he lowered everyone’s taxes slightly.
Not everyone’s taxes. People making under around $20K will see their taxes go up.
Oh, and the people who have been unemployed for more than 99 weeks can just go somewhere and die.
Obama’s view, apparently, is that the poor are too rich and the rich are too poor.
anon2525
Mint understands something most liberals don’t, if you cut DoD*, you need to get ready for losing a lot of good paying jobs.
“Most”? Those jobs should be cut. Is that clear enough? Cut, cut, cut. Hand out pink slips and shut down the plants.
There are many things that the population should be employed at that are not being done today. The spending by the fed. gov’t. on military contracts and weapons that are sent overseas and blown up is a waste of fed. tax dollars, and a waste of American lives.
anon2525
Just blindly cutting the budget by some X% because you don’t care about notching up unemployment another 10-17%, or whether you’re the douch bag who drives the final nail into this empire…well, brother…you can count me out.
I liked it better in the Original Obama:
S Brennan
anon2525 says DoD jobs should be eliminated with,
“Those jobs should be cut. Is that clear enough? Cut, cut, cut. Hand out pink slips and shut down the plants.”
Leaving aside Anon’s sociopaths willingness to destroy the livelihood of 1o’s millions of people, with replacement jobs that are at least decades away…if ever.
What does it say about a man who writes about the worthlessness of DoD spending on a machine that was developed originally by the military [Computer], through a medium that was developed originally by the military [Internet], so that others may read it on a screen that was originally developed for the military [LCD].
This is why so many despise the left with visceral reaction, it’s the vocal elitist sociopaths that inhabit it’s ranks. Not only are they cruel, they’re stupid…and proud of it!
chicago dyke
i gotta confess: i didn’t think they’d do it. technically, they haven’t yet, exactly, but i guess this is the bone they’re throwing to the gAyTM types. it’s pretty pathetic, the way so many folks are treating this like the second coming of the FSM or something. yeah, queers can openly be queer while bombing wedding parties. i’m so happy. not.
but that definitely puts me in the minority of most political gay folks and liberal bloggers, who had an orgasm today over this. never mind that the DREAM act would’ve had an impact on hundreds of times more people, or that the trade off with the GOP was almost a trillion dollars in tax breaks for the most wealthy, and to a significant effect on the economy. no, the most important thing is that republican chickenhawks may now openly date their libertarian boyfriends in uniform and show up at Village parties “without shame” or something. who knows, maybe now our forces will actually be able to translate some of those cables and intel in written in those funny languages they obviously haven’t been able to read for years now.
Minute of Arc
Leaving aside Anon’s sociopaths willingness to destroy the livelihood of 1o’s millions of people, with replacement jobs that are at least decades away…if ever.
“Sociopath”?
Did it occur to you that those livelihoods involve destroying something else?
anon2525
Leaving aside Anon’s sociopaths willingness to destroy the livelihood of 1o’s millions of people, with replacement jobs that are at least decades away…if ever.
Actually, you first set up the hypothetical that it would be politically possible to cut military spending and that it would be politically impossible to add non-military spending. If it becomes politically possible to cut military spending, then it will become politically possible to add non-military spending.
You’re creating the scenario needed to reach your conclusions, not describing what exists.
And while doing this, you called people who don’t accept your hypothetical unrealistic (or, the preferred term is “sanctimonious purist”). And you assumed that no one would call you on this.
What is realistic for the present is that there will not be any cuts to military spending, and there will not be any spending for the work that needs to be done to address the problems that the country faces. Instead of describing that reality, you wanted to criticize “liberals” who “don’t understand” that jobs would be lost. You’re only helping the wealthy who want the rest of the country to be divided so that they are distracted from the real issues.
anon2525
i gotta confess: i didn’t think they’d do it.
Me, either.
Many months ago, when discussing the rentier class and related topics, I wrote that I thought that Obama might get social-issue legislation (DOMA, DADT, etc.) passed because it does not effect the economic circumstances of the rentier/monopoly/protected industries, while it could get him some votes. But recently, I had written and guessed that the republicans did not want to let DADT to get through because they love it as a wedge issue. Maybe they’re so giddy about the tax bill being signed that they’re letting this through.
anon2525
This is why so many despise the left with visceral reaction, it’s the vocal elitist sociopaths that inhabit it’s ranks. Not only are they cruel, they’re stupid…and proud of it!
Seriously, did you not get the memo? We’re not “elitist sociopaths.” We’re “tough sanctimonious purists.”
Cruel and stupid and proud. Let’s see, in 1967, Tiger Force spent six months going through killing civilians, maiming people, creating mass graves by dropping grenades into holes occupied by women and children (you can look it up). But their not cruel, right? There are still people in this country who 1) say that hussein was responsible for 9/11 and that he had WMDs, but they’re not stupid, right? And proud? Ever heard the expression “support the troops”? There is no end to their overweening pride.
When this country stops killing millions of children, women, and men, then you can lecture “liberals” about their lack of compassion.
Until then, if you lose your job, talk to your representative and president — they’re the ones who are preventing the policies that would put you back to work, not the “liberals who want to cut military spending.”
anon2525
What does it say about a man who writes about the worthlessness of DoD spending on a machine that was developed originally by the military [Computer], through a medium that was developed originally by the military [Internet], so that others may read it on a screen that was originally developed for the military [LCD].
What it says is that scientific and engineering research does not require a military end for it to be useful. What does it say about a man (?) who thinks that something must have a military use for research in it to be funded?
Minute of Arc
yeah, queers can openly be queer while bombing wedding parties. i’m so happy. not.
They’ve fallen for the media head-fake that DADT repeal generated so much noise because it was some sort of progressive Holy Grail.
It generated so much noise because of all the LGBT issues it was by far the easiest to deal with, since it could in principle have been repealed without involving Congress at all. The Adminstration’s decision to do it the hard way, and then string the process out all the way to the midterms and beyond, led many to gravely doubt the Adminstration was sincere in its professed concern.
That this, rather than DOMA or even ENDA is being touted as the iconic issue shows just how far down the rabbit hole we are. I could say the same thing about DREAM, really–does third-century Rome’s military recruiting policy somehow constitute progress now?
Bernard
Paying the taxes for that military research means the internet is publicly owned. not private property of either the military or the government. entrusted by the public.
the whole farce of killing to “save the world.”
when school children don’t have to hold bake sales to fund their education or buy school books. when the DOD has to hold bake sales to build a warship.
that old bumper sticker said it best. We spend more each year on defense than the rest of the world combined, every year, every year for years now. and that is just what we are told. by our own Government.
Liberal it may well be called, common sense is what it is.
S Brennan
“Did it occur to you that those livelihoods involve destroying something else?”- Minute of Arc
I cover the falseness of this argument in my original post which was in response to another comment about how the only industry we have left are there because of DoD contracts, please read up thread.
Again:
“I’d end these expensive/stupid wars and redirect the spending within DoD and slowly work the DoD budget down as subsidized industries are stood up.
And because so many are clueless about how things really work, cheaper labor is NOT why other countries are out competing us, if that was so Germany would be in the crapper…it’s not and it’s labor is far more expensive. It’s industries are heavily subsidized and given preferential tax treatment over other business that rely on ponzi schemes.”
S Brennan
C Dyke ,
I felt the same as this:
“i gotta confess: i didn’t think they’d do it…”
But I don’t agree with this part
“queers can openly be queer while bombing wedding parties. i’m so happy. not. ”
Not being able to serve openly has allowed the military, particularly in rear units, to continue to dehumanize a group of people with endless slurs, you couldn’t complain about the stupidity of the denigration without bringing an investigation on yourself. I remember all too well the witch hunts that took place after people spoke in favor of Clinton’s pledge. NCO’s, men with 18+ years were driven out without retirement benefits. It sucked. That’s over.
Now let’s see if Obama has the courage to use his power as CiC to order the end of abusive language against gays? I won’t be holding my breath.
Let’s also remember a lot of “progressives” Obamanation types supported the invasion of Iraq and support his multiple escalations of Af-Pak. The military is not the problem, it’s the political leadership and the war lusting “progressives” like Josh Marshal, Kevin Drum, Ezra K, Matt Y & Jon Alter
beowulf
Yeah there’s something to Ian’s point that the more loyal the voting bloc, the more they’re taken for granted. Though I’d also suggest, to use Stirling’s three polar politics terms, DADT won because enough moderates wanted to throw a bone to progressives (we’ll see how long it takes for Ivy League schools to reopen their ROTC programs). DREAM won because enough moderates wanted to a bone to Confederates. What didn’t get a vote and will die at the end of the session was the House China tariff bill. We mustn’t let the progressives and the Confederates demand the same thing at the same time.
http://thehill.com/business-a-lobbying/129559-labor-to-push-for-china-currency-bill-during-lame-duck
S Brennan
To give credit where it’s due, it would not have happened had the gay Republican servicemen not overcome Obama’s arguments in federal court. If the Obama administration run the clock any longer, it would have been the Republicans to end the policy in federal court. I’m glad the policy was ended, but remember, DoD conceded to the court’s ruling last month, it was the Obama Administration who on appeal argued [apparently falsely] that ending the policy would endanger service members in federal court. Gays should be happy this insanity ended, but they should clear that they were cynically used like toilet paper by the Obama administration.
Hajja Romi Elnagar
Probably more congresspeople than care to admit it are gay. It is in their own best interest to stop this persecution of gays.
It is sad, though, that gays want to be in the military. It is sad that ANYBODY wants to be in the military these days. I worked in the civil rights movement in the sixties, and I honestly wonder what kind of progress it is to have a black President who renegs on his promise to shut down Guantanamo, and continues wars on the Third World. What kind of progress is it to have a black man who works behind closed doors to further the interests of the rich? Gays and lesbians do their “cause” no real service to be part of a war machine that tortures and kills.
william mcdonald
Some might say since the “chosen war” is going badly, and there is no draft anymore, you got to get “cannon fodder” where ever you can get it.
guest
“… and guessed that the republicans did not want to let DADT to get through because they love it as a wedge issue.”
Well, there’s always abortion. Almost 40 years, and that one is still rousing the social conservatives. If they were serious, they could have got rid of that one decades ago. But they have acted like the only way to attack that issue is by packing the courts. And so they pack the courts with corporate friendly judges who just chip away at Roe v. Wade without taking it away as a wedge issue. I guess the lesson is that a useful wedge issue is one where your side gets to feel like the victim.
South Carolina is home of the Junior Mint
@S Brennan – I think you got my point exactly: the military is the USA’s only real industry. Our cheapest commodity is its military personel. With the repeal of DADT, that commodity has decreased in price as the supply has now increased. The USA can now price its military for a greater return on investment.
nihil obstet
Although I agree that voting patterns have some effect, this is one that I think is not just about politics and voting. Gays are better represented in elite circles than are Hispanics. They’d be likely to view continuing this discrimination as a personal insult. In a government that has increasingly devolved into cronyism and connections, I think that has a non-negligible impact.
anon2525
Well, there’s always abortion. Almost 40 years, and that one is still rousing the social conservatives.
Don’t forget the right-wing’s buddy, racism. That’s been the most useful wedge, even if it isn’t stated out loud.
I guess the lesson is that a useful wedge issue is one where your side gets to feel like the victim.
A useful wedge issue is one that wedges voters apart from the people that they would otherwise have a common interest with, keeping them fighting with each other so they won’t notice the unrelenting class war that has been waged through the decades.
anon2525
Not to be crass, butour muilitary [sic] is the only home grown manufactured commodity left in the US…
I think you got my point exactly: the military is the USA’s only real industry.
Those two statements are (unintentionally?) making different assertions. It is not true that the military is the only home-grown, manufactured commodity. There is the pharmaceutical industry, the industrial agriculture industry (including genetically-modified plants and hormone-fed livestock), there is the unregulated, lawless “financial industry”, there are the cable companies and telecommunications generally, there is the education industry, etc. In general, if something is expensive or single-sourced (monopoly) then it is a protected, “home-grown” industry.
…cheaper labor is NOT why other countries are out competing us, if that was so Germany would be in the crapper…it’s not and it’s [sic] labor is far more expensive. It’s [sic] industries are heavily subsidized and given preferential tax treatment over other business…
Agreed. There are other “industries” besides the “military industries” in the u.s., and they have an array of protections to prevent competition.
South Carolina is home of the Junior Mint
USA Military personelle are primarily home bred and born in the USA, much like the cattle made into the 4th of July hamburger or hot dog. The pool of avaliable cattle have been increased making our military complex product more affordable to the available international market.
dcblogger
I think the wars have a lot to do with it. They just cannot afford to keep throwing people out during a war. There just are not enough replacements.
S Brennan
MYIQ2XU, headliner at Confluence is blocking comments as he repeatedly top lines Assange rape accusations because, as he has stated repeatedly, he believes leakers and those who publish their material belong in prison regardless of the crimes they uncover.
So I want to call attention to this story so when ‘liberal” bloggers repeatedly post on the subject you have an idea of who they’re in league with.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/andrew-kreig/rove-suspected-in-swedish_b_798737.html
Ian Welsh
Really? He’s blocking comments for Assange and wants Assange in jail?
Pathetic.
S Brennan
Yep, go read his 3 post inside of 24 hours.
Ian Welsh
Yeah, saw one of them anyway. That’s what occasioned the above post.
Seriously, I despair, because at least half the ostensible left seem to be ok with authoritarianism. And that’s no left I’m interested in being part of.
S Brennan
Thanks Ian,
We may disagree on issues, but you are one of the few who seems immune to all the forms flattery & bribery that are there for the taking.
I appreciate your hard work to play a straight game.
I was surprise how easily blog-boys were bought out in 2003…I don’t know why, I’m pretty cynical.
BTW, I don’t think I’m immune, I might have praised the Viet Nam war in trade for the Civil Rights act, full employment, a Space Program & the War on Poverty, but as you can see, as whores go, I’m pretty pricey. A pink Cadillac will not do it for me, it’s one thing to be a whore, it’s another thing to be a cheap whore with no self-respect.
Jewel Mooney
Well, there’s always abortion. Almost 40 years, and that one is still rousing the social conservatives. Don’t forget the right-wing’s buddy, racism. That’s been the most useful wedge, even if it isn’t stated out loud. I guess the lesson is that a useful wedge issue is one where your side gets to feel like the victim. A useful wedge issue is one that wedges voters apart from the people that they would otherwise have a common interest with, keeping them fighting with each other so they won’t notice the unrelenting class war that has been waged through the decades.