Ron Paul Hysteria

Also, Ian, I think enough has happened since your last Nostradamus post for you to make another set of predictions. I’m starting to get impatient….

Yes, let’s call our political advisories “insane.” In fact, we might just institutionalize them as the Soviets did back in the day. Anyone must be insane to disagree with you.

Let’s sling unsupported claims like, “Paul’s economic policies will cause worse-than Great Depression.” No. The fact is we are on the power-climb end of an exponential debt curve, with $trillion+ deficits as far as the eye can see. The worst is eminent without drastic action.

Tax our way out of the mess? Confiscating bill Gates’ entire fortune would only feed the deficit (much the $16 trillion debt or the $60 trillion unfunded liabilities) for about 5 days. How many Bill Gates must we eat to fund 365 days, just to balance the budget once?

Okay, keep living in a Keynesian Socialist dreamland and pretend the debit will never bite.

Let’s instead trumpet our single-issue moral superiority over those insane “pro-lifers.” If you object to abortion 5 minutes before a baby would be naturally born, then you have your own “pro-life” drawn somewhere. Do you really know when life begins?? If you are wrong, then 50 million killings since 1970 are on your conscience.

Disagree with Paul, but admit that his stand is every bit as principled and consistent as yours.

It’s all just Kabuki Theater at this point, and piss poor Kabuki, at that. Do you really think that someone who holds some of the views Ron Paul holds would actually be allowed to determine the destinies of some of the most powerful people the planet has ever witnessed? Seriously? Come on, this is insane. You’re not going to elect your way out of this. There’s only one way out, if you want out, aside from suicide. We all know what it is, and its likelihood is improbable as witnessed by people still believing they’re somehow represented in elections.

I’m not lending legitimacy to this charade. I hardly follow it anymore, except for occasional amusement. Some people never stop believing in Santa….they just replace him with their favorite candidate when they reach a certain age.

None of that is aimed at you, per se, Ian, but rather at the spectacle itself and how everyone gets caught up in it.

There’s that….meaning what I just mentioned, but as a causal observer who believes as Ian does, that the “thing” is coming, one way, or another, there’s this……because…..well, because it’s interesting, that’s why.

Hmmmm….this is weird, the AFM, an organization I didn’t even know existed, is endorsing Ron Paul. Of course, the site could be an extremely dry joke, in fact, I wouldn’t doubt it, but hell, if it’s not, it supports my contention that in this time of the Singularity, satire, and the reality from which it is derived, are now indistinguishable and seemingly one and the same. The convergence is complete. Hanna-Barbera is now non-fiction.

http://www.americanfascistmovement.com/news.html

The Paul bus is an interesting one. You never know who might be sitting next to you. It’s a Magic Bus that’s drafting the Crazy Train.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bl9bvuAV-Ao

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MLp7YNTznE

I agree, Ian. For Obama supporters to pillory Paul is the height of hypocrisy….well, the current height. I think their hypocrisy can go much much higher, though, and will. I think what they’re doing is called projection.

If Paul somehow got elected inauguration would take place near a grassy knoll.

BTW Ian – you nailed it on this one.

Grow the economy, increase tax rates, go to single payor and cut the military. There’s most of your deficit, and you don’t want the government in surplus anyway. (I’d say deficits should run about 5% of GDP, consistently.)

You can’t slash your way out of the current problem. You have to grow out of it. Austerity will just make it worse. People who think that kitchen counter economics apply to national economics are, at best, deeply and dangerously misinformed.

Getting rid of the central bank and slashing the government to the extent Ron Paul wants to will cause an economic apocalypse. It’s not going to happen because he isn’t going to be President and if President wouldn’t be allowed to, but it would be apocalyptic if he somehow managed it.

It’s difficult to express how much I agree with you on this.

It’s amazing that almost no one else I either personally know or read online understands it either–and that’s why you’re probably right that we’re going to face a catastrophe. Almost everyone wants to avoid a crash, but we’re not doing anything to stop it. Instead we’re gunning right for it thinking its actually a recovery and a return to normalcy.

The problem is that the issues that some people consider to be secondary issues aren’t abstract to some other people, and these are issues on which, despite various capitulations, the Democrats and the Republicans actually *are* still different. Here’s a post by Echidne of the Snakes which is a sort counterpoint to Ian’s post.

Who gets thrown under the bus first?

Obama vs. Paul is highly unlikely to be in the cards. But preferring Obama to Paul reveals much less than you seem to be inferring, Ian.

One point in Ron Paul’s favor is that the things he wants to do that are damn crazy (fiscal policy, going back to gold standard) can’t be done without both houses of Congress approving, while the things he wants to do that are damn sensible (nonintervention foreign policy, ending the policy of assassinating Americans) can indeed be done unilaterally by executive order of the President.

But perhaps instead the issue is this: Ron Paul makes you decide between priorities which aren’t secondary. Blowing brown people into a fine red mist is bad. Losing abortion rights is bad. The federal war on drugs is bad.

But more importantly, and hopefully, it makes us think about why there is a dichotomy here, since there’s no prima facie reason why we should have to choose between abortion rights and anti-war, for example.

Paul won’t split the left. If anything, he will send “moderate” conservatives over to vote for Obama, just like they did last time around when faced with the prospect of Hillary or McCain. The “split” you are talking about is some meaningless anxiety and a little bit of name calling (which reminds me of the “puma” insults). I *will* vote for Paul in the Republican primaries. Nothing wrong with that. And I just might vote for him or *waste* my vote on a write in for the general election (which I know very few liberals will do, and I’ll get slammed for it, but really if everyone who is dissatisfied with Obama did the same, it will not counteract the effect of conservatives reluctantly voting for Obama. So unbunch your panties, folks).

But perhaps instead the issue is this: Ron Paul makes you decide between priorities which aren’t secondary.

Ron Paul is a message, in my opinion, and he may not even realize it. The message is rather clear and transparent, and it’s intended for a small audience that is by no means a majority. The message is if that’s what you want, this is what you’ll get. In otherwords, you can not have your cake and eat it, too. The message is that one way, or another, we’re going to metaphorically sodomize you. The message is that you can check out anytime you like, but you can never leave. The message is “let’s see what you’ve got…because we believe you’ve got nothing, and you’re going to keep on taking what we dish out straight up.”

If what you say is true, then isn’t Gary Johnson the perfect candidate? He is as fiscally conservative as they get, without all that crazy social conservativism.

Sharpen the blades, erect the scaffolds; too many debts, too few assets and all pledged in perpetuity with a growing hungry population.

just what i feel

More points in Paul’s favor:
1. He opposes free trade agreements (along with his stalwart ally Walter Jones R-NC)
http://fdlaction.firedoglake.com/2010/12/09/ron-paul-walter-jones-write-letter-opposing-obamas-nafta-style-korea-free-trade-deal/

2. He sponsored a bill with Alan Grayson that would have cut off Afghanistan war funding and used it to cut taxes from the bottom up (the $150B in unspent war funding would be used to fund exempting the first $35k/$70k of individual/family earnings from the income tax)
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rep-alan-grayson/the-war-is-making-you-poo_b_585343.html

3. His healthcare reform bill was damn clever. Of course his “private option” plan called for HSA accounts and private insurance, but all healthcare expenses (including HSA contributions) would be given a 100% tax credit against income and FICA taxes. Now surely more would have to be done for the chronically ill who don’t qualify for coverage and those at lower incomes (namely, making the tax credit refundable). However, since one huge hurdle to a Medicare for All system is financing (unlike war spending, healthcare spending is expected to be “paid for”), a system that puts healthcare expenses onto general revenue (in this case by a 100% tax credit) would be bigger step towards a single payer plan than anything Obama has done. Once the principle is established that the govt is the single payer of healthcare, then the debate shifts to the most cost-effective means to achieve it.
http://www.ronpaul.com/2010-05-27/ron-paul-introduces-the-private-option-health-care-act/

Not saying I’d vote for Paul (I would vote for Romney) but as the British used to say, he’s certainly a man of parts.

I agree that it’s the answer to the problem considering the current operating System…..meaning this System is predicated upon growth….it cannot exist without it. However, whereas there may be starts and stops on this path of decline, meaning there may be some periods of growth, overall, it will be retraction from here on out until a sustainable equilibrium is reached.

I’m going to attack this argument, but I’m not sure if I’m being entirely fair in what I’m about to say–a lot of my argument depends on how you define “growth” and “sustainable.” Those words often cover very divergent ideas.

Sustainable equilibria do not exist in human society beyond perhaps a few hundred years, and its arguable whether they last even that long–there are multiple, small to moderate system shifts within the larger trajectories of human civilizations. The system is always shifting, always moving, always out of equilibrium, even (especially) in the long run. That’s why we need to work to constantly build, re-build, repair, innovate, etc. Any given period of human history is only stable and sustainable given certain underlying conditions are met–generally concerning energy, food, and political and climatic stability.

If the current global society collapses, I don’t think we will have reached some stable, sustainable equilibrium. If it slowly deflates, we also won’t have reached a sustainable equilibrium–because what is “sustainable” changes over time due to both human activity and climatic changes. There is no sustainable equilibrium, there is only a succession of different equilibria over time that are better or worse for overall human welfare.

Look at the pattern of past ice ages. Its a cyclical pattern–a limit cycle–that the Earth system slipped into a couple million years ago. The onset of each ice age sees a dramatic reduction in the amount of biological mass on the planet, since the climate cools so much and ice covers more of the Earth’s surface. What is “sustainable” changes during these events. Even if we could enter some form of equilibrium with the surrounding biosphere, it would eventually change on us. We live on an indifferent planet in an indifferent universe. We will never settle into a sustainable, stable pattern. There will always be impulses both from the outside environment and from within our societies that will push us onto other trajectories.

You’re right, Petro, it was a poor use of words. I will expand on it in a post this evening. I agree with you bolo about sustainable steady state and equilibrium being incompatible partners.

Disregarding the rights of women (even those in Afghanistan) does not justify a benign nod to Ron Paul being “ok”. Ditto for the disregard for his opinion on people of color. I see this laziness at the Progressive Populist also …… trading away rights for this or that because the ends justify the means is the wrong approach to democracy.

Morocco Bama PERMALINK
January 4, 2012
_______________

My god! What a disturbing/fascinating/frightening read that was. All new to me; thanks, I think…

And I just might vote for him or *waste* my vote on a write in for the general election (which I know very few liberals will do, and I’ll get slammed for it, but really if everyone who is dissatisfied with Obama did the same, it will not counteract the effect of conservatives reluctantly voting for Obama. So unbunch your panties, folks).

guest, I’m also going to write in a candidate. I was going to write in my cat Bennie, but lately I’ve been reconsidering. I think I’ll write in Jill Stein or Bernie Sanders. Or maybe Alan Grayson.

2nd

Libertarians and their inner contradictions on child-rearing.

here I simply cite the good mtraven on libertarianism and childrearing:
http://libertardian.posterous.com/licensed-to-procreate

here are mtraven’s rants on libertarianism in general.
http://omniorthogonal.blogspot.com/search/label/libertarianism

The take-home-message is, that libertarianism is a defunct mode of organizing a society, and Rand Paul is no exception.

He is a block-head (maybe the term is wrong, but anyhow) with a dangerous disorder.
He splits, like an axe, progressive sensible thinking.
Take one side, give one side.

And this is truly dangerous!

3rd and last.

(This is only insofar an issue for me, as I feel challenged by that as an involuntarily involved global citizen, ok?)

Imagine that RP, unlike the Messiah of phony ‘Change’, Obama, who sounded like an agent of universal change for the ‘Positive’, comes up with another message:

You get
–Demilitarisation
–Abolishment of the FED
…other goodies
BUT
You have to take
–responsibility for yourself (whatever that means)
–no big solutions. Take care for yourself.
–etc

———
NOW:
In case he is elected,
You ONLY get the bitter parts, and NONE of the sweet ones.

US-progressives seem to assume that they get the sweet ones, but only have to swallow some of the bitter ones as a compensation.

This is the deal.

Juast imagine:
What sweet deals would pass Congress/Senate?
What bitter deals?

You guess!

Idiots never learn.

Thats why they are so good business partners.

To continue my response to Bolo, and after an evening and partial morning of consideration, I don’t think sustainable equilibrium is a poor choice of words, it’s just wasn’t the ideal choice to make my point. This isn’t to disagree with you, bolo, because I agree that equilibriums are tentative, fleeting and ever-changing, but some equilibriums have longer time frames of relative steady state than others. Take our atmosphere, for example. Yes, over the history of planet earth, the atmosphere has had many equilibriums, meaning identifiable default ranges of an aggregation of various elements. Yes, these default ranges have changed over time to what is now the default range that supports life, and more importantly, complex life. We, us humans, and many other species and organisms, need the atmosphere to maintain this default range, within its tolerable limits, for us to continue to thrive and propagate. Once that changes, we either evolve, or perish, but as we have seen, that can change rather quickly, and in all likelihood, much too quickly for most organisms, especially the more complex ones, to evolve in time to survive in the new default range. Pursuant to that, it’s important to note that there are studies out there that are showing that the percentage of oxygen in the atmosphere is in decline. There is disagreement about the rate of decline, and the amount of decline thus far, but the trending is fairly indisputable. It’s also strongly suggested that the activities of industrial man have created this trend. Therefore, the growth of our economy, which requires the transformation of finite raw materials, using finite, polluting energy sources to power that transformation, cannot be indefinite, not only because of finite resource restrictions, but also because it threatens to alter the default range equilibrium of the biosphere that allows life, and complex life, to survive and thrive. Of course, even without human precipitated altering of the current default equilbrium, other factors outside of human control, will eventually preside and alter it, so we know that unless we evolve into something less vulnerable, something not so biologically fragile (see the documentary Technocalyps), our species will eventually go extinct. When and how is a matter of conjecture. But, such an eventuality shouldn’t serve as an excuse to continue to foul our nest by saying “oh well, our time here on earth as a species has been relatively short and will be relatively short in comparison to earth’s history, so don’t sweat it.” That’s sophistry.

All that being said, and I’m sure there will be disagreement with it, I provide this link that shows the absurdity of growth…..even limited growth, and this individual was being optimistic in their portrayal.

http://physics.ucsd.edu/do-the-math/2011/07/galactic-scale-energy/

guest, I’m also going to write in a candidate.

Same here….and I’m going a step further. I have the adoption papers already prepared.

Those in power don’t have to justify anything at this point. With a population so critically dumbed down and their collective heads so far up their i-asses, you could put this in the chair, and the course would be exactly the same. In fact, that’s what I think I will do. I will adopt an eggplant and vote for it. I think that sends an even better message. It says to those in power, “shove it up your asses, ya jerks, we’re not playing your little game anymore.” And then, make some baba ghannouj.

MB,

I admit I only skimmed that essay you linked called “The Childhood Origins of World War II and the Holocaust.” Too much else to do today. But it raises some red flags for me. I think it’s too easy to attribute the rise of fascism to such things. I think fascism can arise anywhere, depending on the social, political, cultural environment at a particular time.

Fear leads people to do and acquiesce to all sorts of irrational things, and fear is easily stoked. The post 9/11 hysteria and paranoia of this country are still going strong. It helps that fear is a profitable industry in addition to being an effective way to keep the sheeple in line. There’s money to be made, big money.

I just finished reading “It Can’t Happen Here” by Sinclair Lewis. Published in 1935, just as relevant today.

I’m also reminded of the movie “The White Ribbon” by Austrian director Michael Haneke. Of course that’s a film, not a treatise, so it’s open to many different interpretations. It sparked quite a bit of controversy.

Lisa, I agree that the entire cause of WWII and the various Holocausts that ensued from that cannot be pin-pointed to one thing, per se. But, I don’t think it’s a sound argument to discount what is covered in that treatise, because although it’s not the sole cause, the ultimate causes have their respective roots in it….meaning it helped provide the fertile soil in which the abomination that was WWII flourished.

Just when I thought there was nothing new to add to this debate I read He’s a different kind of lesser evil.
Wow.
That sums it up perfectly. We have lesser evil that will chink away at the welfare state more slowly. A lesser evil that will destroy public with more nuance. A lesser evil that will pay lip service to protecting the environment (rather than outright attack environmental regulations) and we have a lesser evil that is completely wrong on some issues but is completely right on others (and spare me the “but his convictions come from the long place” argument. First, I don’t believe this as it pertains to our endless wars. He is the only candidate discussing the concept of blowback. And second, If you live in a war zone I don’t think you’re concerned with such esoteric matters.)

Ian, this is the single most accurate piece I’ve seen on this Ron Paul kerfuffle thus far. Kudos.

If “mainstream liberals” had any sense, they’d stop obsessing over the idiotic rantings of the Thug du Jour and start concerning themselves with Democratic Party demagoguery instead. Paul won’t win the nomination. That’s already been promised to Willard, whose own campaign is so genuinely incompetent he actually makes me laugh on occasion.

This is why I agree with you that the “left” won’t have a chance to make change until after the collapse. Ed Schultz’ viewers are apparently upset with him saying Rick Santorum is a good public speaker. He wasn’t sufficiently demagogic, so they are thrashing him with insipid emails. It’s rather difficult in that context for “mainstream liberals” to actually make demands of the very people they put in office in 2008. Must. Froth. Over. Insipid Righties! Must. Ignore. Crass Democratic Leadership!!

It would seem RW Authoritarianism isn’t just for Republicans anymore. They want their two minutes of hate, galdarnit!

As for Paul himself, this guy is a remarkable anachronism of the good, old-fashioned tent revival variety: paranoid, spiteful, conspiratorial and possessing a kind of charm most sentient beings can not understand or even relate to. I don’t know why anyone takes him seriously. But he is at least splitting off some Republicans. I don’t expect him to split “mainstream liberals” very much, for all the reasons cited above. But if he can convince some Thugs to cast doubt on the wars and the war on some people who do drugs, it’s a worthwhile piece of entertainment, if not for the faint hearted.

If he proves to be more successful than his prior vanity campaigns, it will only be because that number of Republicans are just as fed up with their own party as Democrats increasingly are with theirs. That said, he has a better shot at winning Miss Kyrgyzstan than being elected POTUS and he bloody well knows it.

One year ago I was scratching my head wheter there is a ‘Libertarian’ in Continental Europe.
Well, there is one: August von Finck, called ‘Dhengis Kahn’ — German Billionaire, living in beautiful Switzerland, paying no taxes.

And possibly Swedish Ingvar Feodor Kamprad, founder of Ikea.
Paying no taxes either.
…Funktionär der faschistischen Partei Svensk Socialistisk Samling (SSS) …
I spare you the translation.
Should be self-explanatory.

Any similarity to the Koch brothers and other beacons of humanity?

Amen.

You beat me to it, Petro, I was about to say the same thing. And yes, Groo, it is a very special relationship with me. My wife and I decided several years prior that the best thing we could do for the future of Humanity was to focus our efforts on the next generation, and so we have embarked on a journey that hopefully will allow us to open our own Montessori School in the next year, or two, and ultimately a string of them. We look at it this way. It is our goal that the children that come through our program are like seeds scattered to the winds. Some of those seeds are going to take root and flourish. If enough of them do, they will only encourage the production of further seeds and more flourishing…until, perhaps, maybe, just maybe, a Rainforest develops……metaphorical nurturing biosphere of critical thought, empathy, compassion , and creativity. It’s a wonderful methodology….and Maria’s philosophy speaks very much to deMause’s revelations. Take this, for example.

http://digital.library.upenn.edu/women/montessori/method/method.html

From a biological point of view, the concept of liberty in the education of the child in his earliest years must be understood as demanding those conditions adapted to the most favourable development of his entire individuality. So, from the physiological side as well as from the mental side, this includes the free development of the brain. The educator must be as one inspired by a deep worship of life, and must, through this reverence, respect, while he observes with human interest, the development of the child life. Now, child life is not an abstraction; it is the life of individual children. There exists only one real biological manifestation: the living individual; and toward single individuals, one by one observed, education must direct itself. By education must be understood the active help given to the normal expansion of the life of the child. The child is a body which grows, and a soul which de- develops,–these two forms, physiological and psychic, have one eternal font, life itself. We must neither mar [Page 105] nor stifle the mysterious powers which lie within these two forms of growth, but we must await from them the manifestations which we know will succeed one another.

My wife and I know that we will long be dead and gone before the fruits of our efforts truly take hold, if ever they do, but that’s alright, because when the day comes that we take our last breath, we will know that ultimately, our lives were not in vain.

Petro PERMALINK
January 5, 2012

_______________

Krishnamurti and Gurdjieff have been my life long mentors; nice to see Krishnamurti mentioned.

@laughing cat

“You think FUCKING BUSH OR OBAMA GIVE A SHIT ABOUT THE SUFFERING THEY CAUSE?” Your rebuttal is, “They did it too!”? Seriously. How old are you? Twelve?

“It really is as simple as Ian described it.” (You may like it to be that way, but no, it isn’t.)

“Ron Paul makes you uncomfortable because he offers you civil liberties the way it should be…”(WRONG, he makes me uncomfortable because he’d crush hundreds of years of human progress.)

“… he offers an end to wars including the war on drugs…” (no, he doesn’t; he offers an end to the Federal war on drugs, only, and leaves the rest up to the states; that is not an end, that is a shifting of responsibility.)

“… an end to the death penalty…” (see my reponse on the war on drugs.)

“… and the federal reserve.” (and you think this is good? Why?).

“It really is a choice between values, and you know it.”

On your last sentence I agree — this is a choice between right and wrong, between good and evil. You and Ian come down on the side of letting evil happen just to get it over with. To me, that is so totally wrong, lazy, short-sighted, and inhuman, I honestly have no idea how to respond to such depraved thinking.

Ian: I twice tried posting a comment and neither attempt got through.

@groo – great interview at NakedCapitalism – that book caught my eye, too. Thanks!

@MB – good luck with the Montessori school. I see that I’m not alone on this thread, thinking about doing something similar. Hope you are able to take it beyond the dreaming stage.

@MB – good luck with the Montessori school. I see that I’m not alone on this thread, thinking about doing something similar. Hope you are able to take it beyond the dreaming stage.

I hope so, too, Al, although considering my wife’s latest dream, I may never see this dream come to fruition. Of course, I don’t want to overplay the significance of this, because it probably isn’t anything more than a bad dream, and I’m not an important person, by any means, so there are much bigger fish to fry…..errr….detain, beat, torture and eventually murder, but still, it’s worth mentioning, because I do believe in the years ahead, what happened to Lisa at NPR will be considered substantially benign, comparatively.

My wife had a nightmare several nights prior in which I was tied up and blindfolded whilst being brutally beaten and tortured. She explained that it was as though it was real. She woke up visibly shaken and could not sleep the rest of the night. Considering the latest draconian legislation passed in regards to detention of U.S. citizens, the apparatus is increasingly in place to disappear any and all dissidents very much like the South American and Latin American model used extensively throughout the 20th century. I told her if I ever did disappear, to contact this forum and a few others with the news so that all of you knew that the time had come, and that the legislation was not for show, but was the real deal, and it was currently in force.

Aside from that, the tough part will be securing the capital to get the school off its feet. We’re looking into loans, but they may not be flexible enough in regards to payment terms to accommodate a ramping revenue schedule….meaning we could end up buried with interest payments before generating enough revenue to cover it. However, tapping into private equity capital has its pitfalls, as well. Generally, you have to pay a higher return and often the private equity concern(s) want(s) some control in the collateral, which we are not willing to hand over. Yes, private equity can be more flexible in regard to the timing of payments, but the question is, is it worth giving up that control and paying a higher premium?

…If you want to talk about depraved, what is depraved about the first world is how they constantly fuck over their young, while pretending to love them. A few more years of this shitty economy are not worth the destruction they are causing. Thinking it is, is depraved.

People like you, who want it to keep going at any cost, are enabling the fracking boom to come, which will do immense damage to present and future generations.

This raises an important subject, and is where it gets totally personal, where the rubber really meets the road. Those who are well heeled or well positioned are much more able and inclined to say “bring it on, now”. The other extreme is those who are barely hanging on, and as such, are doing everything they can to work the ossified political system (better Democrats please, and yay Obama!) to maintain what’s left of the status quo and some dwindling hope of a return to The Good Old Days (good luck with that).

In my own very personal and very selfish case – I hope collapse can be held off for a few years, because I am simply not ready. If it happened next week, I know I’d get crushed. So yeah, even though I agree with your argument about when the collapse point occurs versus amount of damage/horror, in my own case – and I suspect for a great many others, certainly for those who have no clue as to what’s going on – the desired collapse point has everything to do with how prepared one is, and for most of us that means put off the day of reckoning as long as possible, and damn the consequences. Sad but true.

alyosha,

I think I understand you.
And I also do not want to argue Ians position on the outcome.
Possible, but not sure.

I watched the collapse-thinkers for some 10years now–
Jay Hansons dieoff, theoildrum discussions, Olduvai, the Archdruid, Tainter, etc.
Hanson is/was exceptionally brilliant, living in the outskirts of Hawaii, having his ship, as far as I know, and basically has given up since 5 years or so. I admire his intellect, but his moral stance not so.
Similar to Schopenhauer he paints the mirror black, maybe in the hope that people get reasonably frightened.
Has been depressing at times. Anyway.

I want to report as short as possible what I have learned:

I) nobody knows exactly, where we are on the complexity-risk trajectory.
II) we are definitely worse off than 60years ago
III) studying real cases helps
—a) Katrina
—b) bombing of cities (eg Munich in WWII, >50% destruction within months)
—c) what happens with 20-50% daily availability of electricity ( eg now in Georgia or Bagdad,Iraq)
—d) what happens in case of supply-chain disruptions in global just-in-time-supply-chains (eg harddisks/Thailand as an easy case.)
note: GB eg is about 60% self-sufficient in food.

IV) separate sudden collapse(olduvai) from slow descent(archdruid)
those are different possible processes.
—a) interestingly enough there are governmental studies on that
—a1 a British one: “Preparing for High-impact, Low-probability Events” (2012)
—a2) a German one (2011)

The basic message from the German one is, that there is a predictable gradient from mobile communication services breakdown(15min), food-supply and health-service/hospitals (2weeks), to emergency operation –amateur radio and such (>4weeks)
—a3) visibility above 4weeks is difficult to impossible
until then society has to reorganize on a much lower level, or it perishes

V) living in a functioning community, where cooperation trumps competition (!!!) is a big help.

VI) have a basic survival-food-kit for about 4 weeks

VII) decomplexify/simplify your life wherever possible

Hope this helps, and is not too depressing.
I think I have identified the villains, which keeps me alive.
I am not depressed at all.
Just angry.

the last few comments remind of the story about slowly turning up the heat on the frog in the pot on the stove. the frog won’t “get” it until he is cooked.

the slow demise of our economy, versus a big crash.

i just somehow think more will survive a big crash, then the gradual and imperceptable drib drab of a slow bleeding.

talk about humane. i wonder if a quick death is more “humane” than the slow bleeding preferred by some. i know i would rather see my dog die quickly than see them go through a slow writhing pain filled death. i have no doubts that a quick death is better for me to witness. wouldn’t go there ever ever again.

Bernard,

the ‘boiling frog’ is an urban myth.
Frogs are not so dumb.

Re slow-fast:
FAST: think Fukushima. The humanely manageable cases of catastrophe are errors of planning, in a technical sense. Same New Orleans/Katrina.

The SLOW cases are similar, but have another colouring:
resource depletion,
global warming,
the growth imperative.

It is about deep restructuring of a now global system.

Here we are actually dumber than any frog ever being alive.
We simply seem to not be capable to live up to the conditions WE construct!
It is OUR own mess, and not somebody else’s (eg God).

What is ‘humane’?
Obviously it depends on the situation one is in.
And this would be planning and foresight in the first case.
In a technical sense.
I do not suggest that this is the solution. Far from ist.

If both is lacking, well, then ‘shooting the dog’ is probably the ‘humane’ thing to do.

Having hindsight and foresight and roundsight and such would prevent us from having to shoot the dog for ‘humane’ reasons.
Right?

beowulf,

…can do…
…wants to do…

RP seems to be for me just another type of Manchurian candidate.

Want/propagandize (candidate): A(good) + B(bad)

Get (electorate): B(bad) –everything else blocked by Congress/Senate.

Post-election comment:
“You got half of the deal, why do You protest?”

Nice strategy after the propagandist of ‘Hope’.

After the next round, dear Americans, you will be completely out in the woods.

Don’t know wheter this is a deliberate strategy.
To choose between
a) the Propagandist in charge (Obama)

b) someone who promises something good and simultaneously something bad (R Paul) and gives You just the bad part.
Complain?
You got half of the deal, You voted for!
So please shut up!

c) a bunch of complete idiots. Sort of Jokers , who deliver anything the PTB tell them.

Difficult choice indeed.

(Disclaimer: as a Foreigner I formally am not entiteled to comment on that. But on the other hand, this has a global impact, and therefore I claim a voice! )

Having hindsight and foresight and roundsight and such would prevent us from having to shoot the dog for ‘humane’ reasons.
Right?

Of course, right, who could disagree…except there is no “us”, and since their isn’t, the rest is rather irrelevant.

Speaking of Euthanasia, I’m all for it so long as the state, which is corruptible and corrupted, has no part in the administration of it. That would be laying the ground for genocidal depopulation which, imo, would not be beyond the psychopaths who walk the halls of power when the zeitgeist presents itself.

PBS, before it was fully taken over by the Mockingbirds, did an excellent expose on voluntary Euthanasia, on their Frontline program. Here’s a link. It’s a beautiful, humane and dignified way to pass, you have to admit.

http://video.pbs.org/video/1430431984/

I find the above comments interesting in a perverse sort of way:
They seem to pre-suppose there is actually a candidate out there to run against Obama; not from where I sit (14,000km. away).
Good luck with that…

groo
January 8, 2012
Howe effective the US-propaganda machine nowadys works, one can see with the Nobel Price to Obama.
Sure, Obama is not the first case of utter failure of the committee, but an especially significant one.
Unlike maybe Kissinger, Obama stands for a system of control, Kissinger et al never dreamed of.
Obama is the Archetype of Orwellianism.
To award him a Nobel Price is sort of an ultimate entry into the brave new world of double speak.
Amen.

“Obama is the Archetype of Orwellianism.
To award him a Nobel Price is sort of an ultimate entry into the brave new world of double speak.”

If there were a way to Double-Amen, I’d do it.

One thing I have not seen enough of for my tastes is a proper definition of ‘collapse.’ You all speak of it with such conviction, but I may have missed the exegesis at some point.

@Jumpjet – collapse is not any one thing, but rather a confluence, or even a stream of events, that feed into each other. My own understanding, which has been gleaned mostly from reading sites like this one, and maybe a couple books, and a lot of reflection goes like this.

I see three main themes (think of them like themes in a symphony), peaking roughly in this order:

– Peak Credit
– Peak Oil
– Climate Change – which really portends agricultural disruption, food shortages

Each theme has specific events that occur or will occur within them. For example, Peak Credit really began to exercise its effects as the housing bubble popped a few years ago, and major financial institutions either went down (Lehman Bros) or morphed into too-big-to-fail mega institutions. There are many related events that cascade out of this, including Depression-like unemployment levels, foreclosures, bank and business failures, and so on. A final , Peak Credit crescendo event that I am looking for down the road, is the unavoidable acknowledgement by all parties that the USA is bankrupt, which will lead to a repudiation of the US dollar, with many horrible domestic and international consequences.

Peak Oil is still gathering momentum – to crest some time in the future. Gas is still reasonably priced, stores in the USA are still well-stocked (with goods and foodstuffs completely dependent on an uninterruped supply of cheap energy), and America’s entire oil-intensive urban/suburban way of life still dominates, with very few people thinking “this is crazy”. And yet there are ominous signs: foreign policy completely driven by our addiction to oil. Fracking and dangerous off-shore drilling schemes are hailed as necessary and patriotic solutions, instead of crazy schemes. The willingness to go to war over oil. These are all just signs pointing to what’s ahead – when oil finally gets so expensive that the current way of life collapses for a critical mass of people.

Climate change (and ecological collapse) is being felt now, but like Peak Oil, peoples’ daily lives so far have been unimpacted (I wish some of Ian’s Australian readers would speak up here – because Oz – with its extreme droughts and floods has experienced Climate change most dramatically of any developed country, IMO). As far as homo sapiens is concerned (setting aside Arctic wildlife for now), the main crescendo event is when agriculture becomes seriously impacted by climate change, and this has yet to happen in a big way.

A key point is that these three themes feed on each other. Peak Oil acts as an economic throttle on our economy – as economic activity increases, this drives up the price of oil, which throttles recovery. And so Peak Debt events accelerate. As more resources are focused on extracting every last bit of petroleum, this puts off the day when we have to move to another energy regime, and also accelerates Climate change. There are many other interrelationships between these themes, these are just a couple of the better known ones.

This is just my Rough Guide to the Collapse. Others I’m certain have an even clearer picture than I, and of course a lot of it is just speculation, given that our knowledge and foresigt are imperfect. We just don’t know exactly when one event from one particular theme is going to appear, how big it will be, and which shift the dynamic of the whole mix.

What’s really exasperating is that much of this could’ve been avoided had we started working on it way earlier. Two signal events come to mind: Ronald Reagan taking down Jimmy Carter’s solar collectors on the White House (just think if we had had a serious Manhattan style project to really get off of oil, starting in 1980), and our second chance: Bush v Gore in 2000. Arguably, our system was too corrupted for even Al Gore to save us, but GWB represents ten years and trillions lost, and I would argue a sealed fate.

maybe I repeat myself.

Anyway.
looking at this from a geographical distance and consulting my inner strategist,
I see three types of candidates
1) Obama (Orwellian)
2) Ron Paul (sort of a split mind)
3) a mixed bag of complete nutcase candidates

from a strategist point in the Karl Rovian sense of view this is a triple win-win-win.

It is just a matter of degree.

Reading most of the comments from the likes of Greenwald, Raimondo (the paleolibertarian) and such, I somehow miss my own -ahem- conspiracy.

It goes like this:
The game is basically won from the elite point of view in all cases.

–Obama is BAU.
—The nutcases are basically free play for the real decisionmakers.

–Ron Paul, the bipolar extremist is the interesting case:
a) all his positively appealing propositions are easily blocked and will never materialize.
b) his appalling propositions can easily be passed through Congress and Senate, and would accelerate conditions in the US downhill (from a liberal perspective, ofcourse) considerably.

I ask You:
What is wrong with this reasoning?
Hope that there is something terribly wrong.

If not, I interpret this as sort of a Kabuki, whose essence is, to test out the state of the American mind.

It is not a matter of essence, but of proper speed.

Sure, this sounds like a (hopefully cultivated) conspiracy, but I am increasingly incapable of understanding American politics in rational categories.
Maybe as the rationality of the sociopath.

btw,
there is an old treatise with the title

‘Zur Soziologie des Parteiwesens in der modernen Demokratie’

Rough Translation:
‘Sociology of the Party System and modern Democracy’
by some Robert Michels.

The first edition is from 1911(!) and developed the argument, that democracy by logical necessity devolves into Oligarchy.

This is BEFORE there even has been a real democracy eg in Germany.
The second edition is from 1925, in the midst of the Weimar Republic..

Not that somebody says: Hoocodanode.
The inner logic of societal construction and its problems are known for along time, going back to Aristoteles at least.

This inner logic has always been in plain sight for a long time.

see eg
“A Brief History of Plutocracy ”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51qTb2O6eYM

There seem to be some nerds who are not outright autists.

Paul is hopey change from the right. Not that there’s anything wrong with that.

Okay, Ian, let’s put aside the fact that I think you’re wrong to want to get the coming collapse over with and you think that I’m wrong to want to keep fighting it. What evidence do you have that things will begin to get better instead of worse after Ron Paul’s destroyed civilization as we know it (and that is what he will do with his so-called “Libertarian” principles)? How will your prescription make us better off and keep those unemployed husbands from beating their wives? How will things be better for our children? What exactly do you mean by “a clearer path to the future”? How will economic collapse end the military-industrial complex? To my mind, it would make saving that vile set-up even more likely simply because of the chaos that would begin surrounding us. After all, chaos is scary and we have to protect ourselves from those who are not like us, right? And when people are afraid, they seek out someone who will protect them. How will letting this go on prevent the rise of a dozen Hitlers and not lead to the complete reversal of at least attempts to grow Democracy around the world? What would keep the whole planet from crashing into another 500 years of The Dark Ages, as happened after the collapse of Rome? Wars did not end, they just got smaller and nastier. Suffering did not end, it just became ingrained in a new religion known as Christianity. What would make this time so different from that one that it’s worth having now and not trying to avoid?

You are way too optimistic.

Ian, the 1920s are what oncoming collapse looks like. The most important fact, to me, is the size and stability of the US military, and the complacency of the populace in providing the surplus.

America is not what an empire in collapse looks like, it is what an empire about to expand looks like.

There will be no collapse. There will be a controlled downsizing.

@bob, I fully expect a desperate USA to attempt what you’re saying, esp if a President Teabag gets in, but don’t think it’s going to ultimately work. The “size and stability” of the US military is a mirage – we’re borrowing money to keep it going. It will ultimately be a high stakes stand-off between our creditors and our generals – “America’s Last Stand”. I wouldn’t bet on a bankrupt USA to prevail.

Saner heads will/are attempting a controlled downsizing.

@bob mcmanus
“The Cold War was Rome versus Carthage, and America won, turning itself onto a war machine. “

Yes indeed, and where is that Roman Empire today?

Saner heads will/are attempting a controlled downsizing.

Please elaborate. Who are these saner heads? I mention this because in some of your more recent posts your partisanship is revealing itself. This is no time for partisanship. That delusional, fabricated horse is dead. It was a trick pony. Al Gore wasn’t going to save anything but his own fortune and status, and Clinton was as egregious in his violations as was Dubya. Since Reagan, it’s been a bi-partisan consensus in Washington DC….meaning they play their parts, but they’re all playing for the same team and serve the very same Masters.

One sign of collapse, in The West at least, will be massive unemployment….not the paltry 20% we are seeing now, but a figure approaching 50-60%, or more, initially. More than half the people you know will be out of work and struggling to put food on the table. The implications of this are numerous. Health will decline and mortality rates will rise. Life expectancies will drop by 20 years, or more in the span of a decade . Infectious diseases will make a strong comeback, and people will be confronted with life-threatening illnesses on a daily basis. Many will go insane because they will be unable to mentally and emotionally cope with their new living conditions and they are ill-equipped to deal with it, yet there will be no help for these tortured creatures and they will act out in the streets….screeching the siren song of the brave new era. Families will be busted and broken. Single mothers will give their children up in hopes that they will have a better life. Most will lose their retirement, including the majority of everyone posting here. Within several years, the crumbs any of you have managed to save will have been vacuumed up by that wealth-concentrating machine you invested in all these years. If you own your home, it will be worthless aside from being a tentative shelter over your head. You will have to guard it against constant attack and break-in because there will no longer be a police force to serve as a deterrent to desperate criminals. People will start banding together in various ad-hoc tribal affiliations in order to offer themselves some modicum of safety and security amidst the deterioration and chaos.

Alright…enough already, I could go on and on, but that’s one possible permutation. And I do believe there is a psychohistory, but it’s still being written. This psychohistory will have its roots in a couple of generations systematically having their spine and ethical/moral basis removed via mass propaganda and marketing. It’s no longer the parents doing the bulk of abusing. Instead, the parents have deferred that responsibility to interests outside the home. They have offered their children up to an apparatus that molds and shapes them into greatly compromised, mostly homogenized, predictable and dutifully obedient consumer servants. That’s the fertile soil that has sprouted this final act that is now unfloding before our very eyes. Some choose to pluck those eyes from their head and bury what remains in the sand, and others walk around with Eyes Wide Shut. Me….well, I’m keeping them open, foolishly perhaps, but mainly because I’ve always been a sucker for a good drama….and this one promises to please.

You know, considering the prospect of WWIII as a Southerner, what the entire U.S. is doing now reminds me of the Confederacy. Back when the U.S. Civil War happened the South, with an agricultural economy, went into battle against an industrialized enemy. Doesn’t take a rocket scientist to predict the outcome of that match. So fast forward to the present time and here we are, merrily de-industrializing at a breakneck pace and looking for an excuse to start a war at the same time. Eventually we’ll be like that knight in Monty Python – legs and arms cut off, but still jumping up and down screeching at our enemies to come back and fight.

Lisa, it could well be wishful thinking. It certainly reflects the contexts I was in during the time – up to my eyeballs battling right wingers during the Bush years, wearing out my health and getting old in the process – versus high and dry and unemployed post-Bush/Cheney. I do sleep better, no question about it.

@groo – it’s my opinion that Obama received the Nobel Prize – deserved or not – because the rest of the world felt that it could sleep better at night, after eight years of the Cheney administration. I breathed a huge sigh of relief after the 2008 election, and further sighs of disappointment as 2009 turned into 2010. Followed by the sobering realization that it really is over for this country, no turning back now.

I therefore view any discussion of the different kinds of evil each administration represents, and which one is worse, as a bit like arguing over the colors of the deck furniture on the Titanic at this point. I used to see a lot of purity arguments going on at various sites over this. It just doesn’t matter and it wastes energy.

We are on the brink of fascism, and by that I mean the complete marriage of corporation and state, the completion of totalitarian control over the individual by the state, and the complete militarization of the economy.

It would be wonderful if the left in this country could stop it, but they can’t, they’re not large enough, powerful enough or organized enough.

The liberarians might be able to stop it. Maybe. And no, libertarianism is not fascism, no matter how odious their social justice beliefs are.

Libertarianism has much stronger and longer roots in American political history than does social democracy or socialism.

How much of an emergency do you think we’re in? If it’s that close to the brink, the time may be to throw behind the libertarians in order to apply a brake. In order to create space to do what left/liberals have not done for 30 years: try to win over the people who don’t already agree.

^ Yes, no leaders, no heroes, no path forward, no map, no refuge, and no place to rest.
It is indeed a new world; whether or not it’s a brave one is up to each individual.
But for the curious, for the adventurer, for the seeker; nothing has really changed, it’s just in your face and there is no mistaking it for other than what it truly is; a reminder if you will, of that which has been forgotten or never learned…

Some more on Fracking. Pretty soon, we’re all going to be enveloped in these foggy Methane Mists mentioned at the latter part of the video considering the increasing ubiquity of this blossoming bubble.

http://money.cnn.com/video/news/2010/09/13/n_fracking_pa.cnnmoney/

PII

Surviving more than 30 attempted assassinations by the US , which put him into the Guiness book, I give him some credit for misbehavior.

To make the story short:
WHAT has to be done, seems quite clear to me.
HOW it is done, not so much.

As a final food for thinking:
Some Matt Bruening, of whom I have not heard about until yesterday:
http://mattbruenig.com/
who had a lively discussion with George Monbiot recently
http://mattbruenig.com/2012/01/08/two-different-kinds-of-libertarians/
and here one of Monbiot.
http://www.monbiot.com/2012/01/06/why-libertarians-must-deny-climate-change/

This is a fine exchange of thoughts of some fine minds.

Contrast this to some Mitt Romney, who trys to sell his despicable ‘philosophy’ to the american mind, where even Ayn Rand would roll in her grave.

He is a true follower of Michael Milken.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Milken

Cant help of thinking of something akin to Dante’s inferno.

groo, I’m not giving up yet. That’s why I’m involved with the Occupy movement. No matter what happens in the next 10, 20, however-many years, at least I’m going down fighting.

Those Monbiot & Bruenig pieces you linked to, groo, are masterworks of concision and clarity. Thanks, we can all use help in our talking points.

Lisa, thanks for hanging with occupy. I predict a mighty spring.

Another grand thread, folks.

Ahh! the herd.
One neighs some inanity of not giving up, and the others whingingly whinny their agreement.
And the herd is off, nothing but a cloud of (cheeto?) dust in their wake as evidence of their passing.

Good luck with that.

That earlier comment made was of the countries collective characteristics, but those characteristics are flawlessly reflected in its ersatz individuals. It is a country of herds, racing to the slaughterhouse;
oblivious of themselves,
oblivious of their options,
oblivious to their fate,
and undeterred, undeviating in their heedless, headless flight through their lives.
Stuff of tradition, stuff of tragedy.
The ancient Greeks would have loved the story.

Seldom does an opinion carry great weight, This one does:

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2012/01/varieties-of-pissing.html

It should be printed and framed, displayed upon the sacred places you have in your life.
And, should you have a few coin, the author is in dire health and needful of any generosity you might be able to generate. Follow the proffered links to discover the dimensionality of excellent essay.

Interesting couple of responses from T-Bear and then Celsius. T-Bear, if I have the implication of his grandiose erudition correct, essentially says the following:

One neighs some inanity of the futility of resistance, and the others whingingly whinny their agreement.

So, T-Bear implies that we have no options and might as well shoot ourselves in the head because to believe otherwise, or even try anything to the contrary, merely proves that we are the herd animals we are and always have been and in trots Celsius, not with a mere “whingingly whinny agreement”, but rather a quite explicit and sanctamoni0us “Ah-men…” as though Yahweh had spoken and offered up an endless supply of that famous cheese snack as manna from heaven complete with mushroom clouds of that sublimely artificial zesty flavor the herd has come to love. Blessed be the powdered lactose fall-out.

You know, T-Bear, you’re right, herds abound. You and Celsius, with your latest round of posts, have quite aptly proven what you heretofore believed you were somehow above.

So, how do we avoid this dilemma of being a herd animal and being herded? Is it possible? If you answer my question, by T-Bear’s definition, you are engaging in herd animal activity and are thus showing your tragic flaw to be herded. We must never agree….ever….on anything except the formation of one last herd…..a suicide herd, similar to the Jonestown Model, where we use the one option we have to put an end to our herdiness with one last blissful and ceremonial herd rendition. We must all partake of the poisoned Cheetoes (the “e” is in honor of Dan Quayle since its election season) .

Disclaimer: Celsius, if your remark was sarcasm aimed at the pontificating nature of T-Bear’s post, then disregard my blunt satire aimed across your bow. Maybe it’s not that we’re so much herd animals, as much as we are enmeshed in a network of, for lack of a better term, Vatican Simulacra. Like fractals, the Vatican Model replicates itself infinitely with its Popes pontificating and its brethren “ah-mening”, endlessly cascading and folding into itself into eternity…..because “there are no options, this is hell, so shut the hell up and listen…..you filthy animal.”

Talk about a herd, did you see all the comments at T-Bear’s link to Fisk’s article? From one holding pen to another. Jesus, I love this herd stuff. Thanks for bringing it up, T-Bear.

Myself, I largely ignored the story, and any and all reaction to it. Afterall, why is it a story, at all? Who, or what, got the ball rolling on that latest snapshot of “reality?” Whilst you argue the details surrounding that latest reality snapshot, other snapshots for debate are in development. Meanwhile, the carpet and the floor beneath you have been pulled out, and you’re suspended in that moment just prior to free-fall, oblivious, machinating and contorting over carefully crafted and chosen wall hangings.

See, two, or more, can play this game.

Now, for some good news, and some new wall hangings. Bloomberg says Happy Days are Here Again. Cheer up, everybody, The Best is Yet to Come.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-01-13/hiring-logjam-breaks-as-ceos-plan-fastest-u-s-growth-since-2006.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmf1AYgYj6I

solidarity = solitarity

something Freudian going on there.
haha.

Wow, Mitt Gingrich is really going after Newt Romney. The gloves are off. They’re going to destroy each other and leave the path clear for Paul. Kabuki can be fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BLWnB9FGmWE

groo, if you would like, I can give you my address and you can send some donations my way. I mean, afterall, you said you liked my posts….well, most of them, and we need money to start the school. Just give me your e-mail address and I will give you my address for you to send the funds.

There’s a whole lot of mooing and bleating going on in America today as the wranglers try to separate their brands. Of course, there are always rogues going their own way.
My posts pretty much stand by themselves and on occasion, another’s post resonates with me; I don’t feel it necessary to defend or justify that either way.
I’m not responsible for others perceptions/reactions, now or ever.

^ Have it your way…

You’re funny, guys/gals

nevertheless, I try to funnel some Euros to Arthur Silber and his cats.
Next is me, trying to make me a home with 5tons of CO2/year max.
Then some Haitians.
Then Morocco Bama and his heroic wife, trying to educate some children in the vast diasopra
of what is called ‘America’.

–diaspora–
why on earth there is no spelling-checker?
Sense-checkers are right around the corner, we’re told.
Everything will be good then.
Google will do it for us. What a bunch of good guys they are! Kisses!

Peace.
Amen.
Do’nt be evil!

Scene Final, Closing Visuals – Staging

End of golden hour
Open with wide shot of desolate desert landscape, barren mountains in distance, sun has reached horizon and is half way down, what few paltry clouds in sky brightly illuminated on one side, the other growing dark. In foreground a small plot of worked soil with flowers still in bloom but askew.

Pan down to wide shot of garden, the soft soil showing prints of a herd of eejits having just passed through, knocking the plants awry but intact.

Pan back to horizon to telescopic focus, the last of the sun’s disk is slipping beneath, direct sunlight fading, clouds flaming colour.

Light fading fast, pan again to garden, the remaining flowers have disappeared, a new set of prints in the soil is showing, they are the prints of the leading eejit, distinguished by each print having a ring of self importance about it.

Focusing in on a small plaque in the garden, a dedication of the garden to intelligence and information, along with the prints of the leading eejit, the plaque is revealed under a large pile of poo.

Light rapidly fades to dark.

The FINIS

T-Bear,
I appreciate your poetic statement very much.
But being a different sort of animal, I would like to tell You a story.

I once took pictures of winter-flowers -Crocuses- late february in the night.
Very tender beings.
Wondering what they were doing.
What did they do?
Their wrinkled blooms laying flat on the snow.
Never thought they would recover from this.
But they did.

The sun came out next day, and here they were again, in all their beauty.
No wrinkles. Following the sun.

A lasting experience.
Agreed. This cannot be generalized.
But is sort of a living metaphor.

T-Bear, the amazing thing is, every time you post something slighting and derogatory about anyone here, including me, you only do yourself a disservice, because it is you who is guilty of all you espouse, and it is YOU that you are describing. I’ll make this my last post in reply to anything you say, because I believe you are baiting, and I took the bait and ran it far too long. Life’s too short for such nonsense.

A couple words in parting, though. I’m not going to stoop to your level and call you insane, childish, provincial, uncritically thinking and so on and so forth…..as you’ve done to me and others with your recent flurry of posts. That’s counterproductive and futile. The shoe doesn’t fit me, either, so I won’t wear it. You can try it on, if you like. Who knows, it just might fit. It’s worth a try, at least.

In regards to my sanity, I consider it a compliment that you consider me mentally unstable. This world is insane, so to judge me as mentally unstable using all the diagnostic skills and definitions of a world that is obviously insane, means the exact opposite of your intent. Yes, I’m insane, and damn happy to be, at that.

It’s interesting you speak of experience, because that is the very thing I was going to bring up to you. Intelligence isn’t gleaned from education, so if you believe that, and I think you do from what you have said, then your intelligence must be severely lacking. Gathered knowledge, without the psychical and physical experience from which it was derived, does not render one necessarily intelligent. It lacks the most visceral component…..the component of experience. Just as a child must crawl before it walks, so too, must one experience for the full potential of knowledge to be realized as intelligence. Otherwise, you’re just regurgitating, in rote fashion, the words and ideas of others who perhaps realized the experience, and as such, you don’t have the capacity, the neural and synaptical arrangement, to fully comprehend that of which you speak. To that, I will say this about myself. I’m still forming, and I will continue to learn and grow from my knowledge based in experience until the day I die.

As for your belittling comment about adults and children, as is the case with all your recent insults, they’re tried, true and typical internet insulting techniques. If I’ve seen them once, I’ve seen them a thousand times….leveled by helpless individuals who haven’t a leg to stand on, intellectually. Once again, if you consider me childish, thanks for the compliment. When I look around me, and see what all of the adults like yourself have done to this once beautiful paradise and what you adults are about to do to it further, I thank my lucky stars I’m still a child at heart. Perhaps if more of us were, we could change this tide, but not if you have any say in the matter, that’s for sure. I like Bob Black’s rebuttal to your Madeleine Albright-like boast of the vantages of adulthood.

http://www.inspiracy.com/black/abolition/abolitionofwork.html

Ian, I apologize for letting it get this far. As promised, I will avoid engaging T-Bear, even if an insult is flung my way. It’s not worth the distraction, although there is always something to be gained and learned from any experience, this one included.

^Yes.

groo, Numerian is referring to the very same video I linked to the very same day he offered his analysis. I offered it up here because I respect the intellect, the lack of partisanship, and for the most part, the objectivity of the audience. I make assumptions when I post things like that, and the one assumption, amongst others, I made was that everyone here for what seems an eternity now knows the evils of which Newt reveals in that video. We all also know that Mitt didn’t seem to care too much about any of that when he was crusading in the 90’s on his way to conservative glory. I considered that obvious and there was no need to insult any of you with the obvious. Therefore, my angle on it was the what,why and when. What prompted Newtgrich to remove the stops? Why did he and his donors decide to do it when they did it? What’s the real strategy behind the move, and what are the potential implications/ramifications…..considering, as has been mentioned, it’s all rather irrelevant, but sometimes mildly entertaining, rough-shod Kabuki. Also, I’m not interested in the “Politico” version of the what, why and when. There take on such matters is establishment nonsense that doesn’t explain anything, and will leave the inquisitor more confused than when he/she started.

over the weekend I pondered two questions, which took away some of my sleep.
Both are closely related to the current situation, You hopefully see.

a) the justifications of slavery.
slavery is an ancient human relationship.
what is interesting, is its justification and metamorphosis over the millenia.a good entry is wikipedia.
It boils down to a power-relationship, which has to be codified by a system of thought, which is mostly incoherent.
1)Naked power,
2)a system of ‘rights’,supported by religious beliefs.
3) todays wage-slavery, property-slavery, debt-slavery are just variations of an ancient pattern.
The different flavors of e.g Libertarianism are just that:
Variations of an ancient theme.
They collapse on the different conceptions of ‘freedom’ –negative and positive–
as Monbiot and Bruenig and Isaiah Berlin worked out.

b) the anticipation of the demise of ‘democracy’ in the early 1900s.

I spare you Robert Michels, who predicted the demise of (German) democracy before it even started (1911).
There is another character. ‘Brooks Adams’.
He belonged to the US-American aristocracy, and was highly critical of it.

an excerpt:
…
that I suspect the modern capitalistic class to be weak. The scope of the human intellect is necessarily limited, and modern capitalists appear to have been evolved under the stress of an environment which demanded excessive specialization in the direction of a genius adapted to money-making under highly complex industrial conditions.
To this money-making attribute all else has been sacrificed, and the modern capitalist not only thinks in terms of money, but he thinks in terms of money more exclusively than the French aristocrat or lawyer ever thought in terms of caste.
The modern capitalist looks upon life as a financial combat of a very specialized kind, regulated by a code which he understands and has indeed himself concocted, but which is recognized by no one else in the world.
He conceives sovereign powers to be for sale.
He may, he thinks, buy them; and if he buys them; he may use them as he pleases.
…
(ch VI of THE THEORY OF SOCIAL REVOLUTIONS)
now, basically, Adams was anything but a revolutionary, but wanted to make his class alert, to what could happen.

I urge You to read ch VI. The rest is preparatory to his conclusion.

another snippet from Adams:

…
Then nothing remains but flight. Under what conditions industrial capital would find migration from America possible, must remain for us beyond the bounds even of speculation.

It might escape with little or no loss. On the other hand, it might fare as hardly as did the southern slaveholders.
No man can foresee his fate. In the event of adverse fortune, however, the position of capitalists would hardly be improved by the existence of political courts serving a malevolent majority. Whatever may be in store for us, here at least, we reach an intelligible conclusion.
Should Nature follow such a course as I have suggested, she will settle all our present perplexities as simply and as drastically as she is apt to settle human perturbations, and she will follow logically in the infinitely extended line of her own most impressive precedents.
…

Here he presaged globalization and its consequences.

A wise man indeed.

T-Bear and all.

I pride myself of having a sharp mind at times.
But the sharp mind dissects,
the diffuse (??) mind –it has no name per definition!
unites, without aiming to.

I had a long non-discussion with my older sister lately.
The clan-chief is a non-person.
The Mother.

Totally beside the point here.
But maybe not .

Nick,

LOL! You win the thread!

I can just imagine what your dinner table talk is like.

If you don’t mind the magnesium deficit, popping a Prilosec and hiding the knives prior to dinner makes it manageable……oh, and plastic cups….no glass.