Next Steps for Greeks after the Austerity Bill (AKA: Hope for Greece, at last)

Is there any breakdown on how many from each party? It will be interesting to see what people and parties are backing down from selling out the Greek people.

“Two central branches of National Bank of Greece and Eurobank EFG, both leading lenders, were also firebombed” http://on.ft.com/ze6kmR

Do all the MPs pass it and flee? If not, seems obvious that some will be murdered.

And yet another relevant article from AJE featuring Nouriel Roubini;

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2011/11/20111112131427670973.html

I wouldn’t be too quick to conflate Iceland with Greece. That’s too simplistic. I admire the Greeks who are taking a firm stand against this Plutocratic Tyranny, but let’s keep in mind, Greece is center stage. It is the true test case, not only for us, but for the Plutocrats, as well, and don’t think they don’t know it. The Plutocrats will do everything in their power to undermine Greek Independence and Sovereignty…..and I mean EVERYTHING! What happens in Greece will happen everywhere in the West, eventually, meaning within the next five to ten years, so it’s vital that we stand as one with the people of Greece in this matter and don’t settle on Greece only, if the people of Greece manage to throw off the yoke. That momentum needs to be built upon and used to catapult a crushing tidal wave across the Global Plutocracy, forcing them to abdicate their stranglehold and remand themselves to “the people” so that “Justice” can be administered, and real and true peace can be pursued.

All that’s a mighty tall order, and perhaps nearly impossible, but it’s not implausible so long as EVERYONE believes, and doesn’t cave to more incrementalism and a deferring of the inevitable.

Actually, if you consider it more closely, Greece needs to go well beyond Iceland in this matter. It would be a half-measure, or a quarter-measure for the people of Greece to settle on an arrangement like that in Iceland. Yes, Iceland refused to bail out the banks, and that was the right thing to do, however, it stills has its national debt…meaning the Plutocrats still get paid back on wealth they either created out of thin air or have stolen through the ages, and that’s part of why it’s only a half, or quarter, measure. The people of Greece not only must take back their government and governance, but they must also repudiate the entirety of the debt that was criminally placed on their backs. And, as I have said several times on this thread, and others, the guilty, and we know who they are, must be brought to “Justice.”

“This is what protest looks like. Not a coffee klatch in a public park ”

You first, tough guy.

Notorious,
I took my lumps on ships at sea, and on picket lines in the days when axe handles were the rule not the exception. I’ve lived my life and am nearing the end of it now, but I never backed away from a threat and I carry the scars to prove it. So, just what are your credentials to be calling names?

“Greek MPs Watch Basket Ball Match, While…”

…
Several members of the Greek Parliament chose to relax from the tiring debate on the new loan agreement, including the austerity package, and the riots and fires in Athens: They left the plenary hall and sat comfortably on soft chairs and couches to watch the basket ball game between Olympiakos and Panathinaikos. At the lounge of the Greek parliament…
…
http://www.keeptalkinggreece.com/2012/02/13/greek-mps-watch-basket-ball-match-while/

groo, love that basketball observation. I often wondered what it would take to suspend professional, or unprofessional, sporting events in the U.S., since it’s what many U.S. citizens live for these days. Without this cornerstone of Bread & Circuses, people would drop dead left and right. What would be the point of going on? I kid you not, I believe that the world could witness a regional nuclear war in the Middle East or greater Asia, and the games would still go on. I can envision a spectacular photo of Tiger or Phil launching a massive drive directly into the heart of a blossoming Mushroom Cloud as the crowd screamed “You Da Man!!!” Increasingly, Idiocracy is not a satire, but rather a documentary.

Case in point, as Greece burns and its people rise up, the headlines are concerned with the death of yet another drug-addled entertainment icon, Whitney Houston. What a telling juxtaposition, wouldn’t you say?

Morocco Bama,

or as the always impressive Phil Rockstroh said

…
Authoritarian personality types favor empty spectacle, such as sporting events and parades, over occupations and protest marches, because there is little danger of the primary taking on a life of its own, of evolving a consciousness beyond simply a provisional surrender to the intoxication evinced by an immersion in the mass. People are transformed by social movements, while they are benumbed by spectacle.
…

http://www.commondreams.org/view/2012/02/13-1

(There’s also an interesting anecdote in it about J.Edgar Hoover.
One never learns enough about the pathologies of power.)

Hey, remember the got milk? advertising campaign that ran for several years? Using that same sentiment, in honor of Hedges recent article, we could start a new campaign called got cancer?. 🙂

Wow, after watching this, if you weren’t already certain, you should be now. War with Iran is going to happen, and the possible ramifications of it are innumerable. The General clearly states that “America” is Iran’s greatest enemy, and he has clearly stated that Iran is not only not intimidated, but it is ready and willing for a U.S. attack. That’s tantamount to dangling a salmon fillet in front of a bear. Even if no evidence has been found that Iran is developing nuclear weapon capability, you’d have to be naive to believe that it is not their goal. They would be idiots not to, at this point, since it’s their only hope. I’m afraid they waited too long, though. This thing’s going to happen before they complete it.

Iran – General Mousavi – How U.S Will be Dealt With if They Attack Iran.

As groo mentioned, the pathology of power never ceases to amaze, but that pathological power is greater than any nation-state. It has no global boundaries, and the implications of that pathology will be experienced by all. Witness Greece. Yes, a system that has allowed this pathology to inculcate, incubate, perpetuate and flourish is a system that is not worth saving, but that system isn’t isolated to the United States. That system has found its way into virtually every planetary nook and cranny, and at this point, in order to neutralize the pathology of power, the system must discarded by everyone, everywhere.

well,

to come back to Greece, a lot of people already have noticed, that Greece maybe is sort of a testing ground for neoliberalism going neofeudal, with a brief interlude of postdemocratic kabuki in the core countries.

The modern Greek are sort of a anarcho-rebellius people, going back to Ottoman rule.
Then this:
(after the Greek revolution 1827)
…
In 1827 Ioannis Kapodistrias, from Corfu, was chosen as the first governor of the new Republic. However, following his assassination in 1831, the Great Powers installed a monarchy under Otto, of the Bavarian House of Wittelsbach. In 1843 an uprising forced the king to grant a constitution and a representative assembly.
…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece#The_Greek_War_of_Independence

now something interesting.
(translated from the German wikipedia)
…
To prevent, that from liberated Greece the spark of Republicanism would spread over europe,
AND especially as a condition of payment for a credit of 472 000 British Pounds and 60mio drachme credit by England, France and Russia to the over-indebted country, the European powers established from the outsige a monarchy.
…
So Prince Otto of Bavaria became the king of Greece.
The Greek kicked him out after 10 years.
Ha-Ha!

Now, the Greek never believed in a strong state, and this is how they acted, and do now.
(the Greek military never seemed to play such a big role, except by the backing of the US during the time of the junta, as Morocco Bama mentiond via ‘Z’.)
The strong state/rule, whenever there was one, never was benevolent.
It was an alien force.
This applies to the 1% as well as the 99%, so to say.

National traumata easily go back 200years, I’m afraid.

The dragons of the past can be revived for a long time.
It is those spirits, which can be abused by demagogues, if a people is cornered.

All the best to the greek people, and may they not be alone.

Notorious,
To amplify a little bit; it was late at night and my energy was low. We blocked the gates, cut truck tiresand turned over trucks. They threatened to call in the National Guard. We told them that if they did that we would burn their factory to the ground. They believed us and the National Guard never showed. We won the day.

I’m not in this fight because I’m an old man and it’s not my future that’s at stake. I fought for mine and these children of priveledge need to fight for their own. They think they can do that with social gatherings and songs. They are pathetic. If that’s the best they can do they do not deserve a future.

And you have not answered my question. What are your credentials to be calling names?

@ groo

You need to read two books by your countryman, Günther Grass, luckily you can read them in the original, translations can be a tricky proposition. Read first his Nobel Prizewinning “The Tin Drum”, and think about what allegory that tin drum might represent (some hints, its
being central to being, excluding all else, its ability to break glass, its use in purloining jewelry, and how mysteriously the once central focal point of the child’s life suddenly turns silent and disappears from the balance of the book, or how that world morphed into something else when faced with existential pressures). Then read “Peeling the Onion” which is the autobiographical memoir of that time. Grass could not talk directly about those experiences, the trauma and the post traumatic syndrome of the individual are lost in the vast historical tides and currents of those events. Between these books Grass speaks with a clarity that has seldom found voice and gives voice to those silences you report above. Grass’ catharsis depended upon giving voice in some form to the un speakable and then speaking it. It is the process which the ghosts of the past are excised and their spirits lain to rest. If it isn’t done, then the next generation is called upon to close the accounts, and they must do so through your generation’s scars and detritus, their grandfathers ghosts have become remote to the grandson’s knowing. If you can lay those ghosts to rest and assuage their spirits, you will provide yours with a fine and rare legacy. Your talk of stories of winners and stories of losers is a vehicle without petrol, you are not likely to go far with that. The trauma of war is the same for victor and vanquished alike, that is the price of being human.

@ guesty

*chagrin* a typo/dyslexic malfunction of the internal editing system. Of course it is Günter; no intention of disrespect was involved.

Otherwise your opinion is noted.

BTW, that last part is what smug condescension looks like when I use it.

Violence, like Justice, is another one of those concepts that is multifaceted and doesn’t lend itself well, linguistically, to a unifying description. Here’s an excellent example that underscores that point.

Cold Evil: Technology and Modern Ethics

Cold evil’s distancing is also profoundly present in those who work for corporations and other technocracies. Our minute and specialized jobs have separated us from ethical consideration of our collective work. Whether processing financial statements at a bank, riveting at a Boeing plant, litigating for a large law firm, or delivering on-line data to corporations, most people’s work represents a tiny cog in the great machine of production. As a result, we become psychologically numbed and removed from the ultimate consequences of the collective work being done. We fall into what E. F. Schumacher termed “‘the sullen irresponsibility” of modern work. Moreover, even if a worker were somehow able to overcome this irresponsibility, to breach the distance and cry out against the immorality of modern production (“I reject this alienating labor. Stop the machines; they are destroying nature, society, and the dignity of work!”), that person’s employment would quickly be terminated.

Virtually all corporations and government bureaucracies are dictatorships in which autocratic managers quickly punish any underling who begins to demand an ethical basis for work and production. Each of us is caught, therefore, in a kind of job blackmail. By allowing ourselves to become numbed by inhuman, meaningless work and to become fully distanced from what we actually produce, we forsake responsibility for the consequences of our production system. We sell our moral birthright in order to “pay the bills.” In this way we each experience our own “pilot’s dilemma.” The distancing endemic to our huge technological system and the massive private and public technocracies that run this system have turned workers, the vast majority of us, into ethical eunuchs and even unintentional criminals.

Whatever their ultimate moral and physical cost, our paychecks do allow many of us to become profligate “consumers.” This cold-evil lifestyle is termed “the good life.” We proudly bring home the new, convenient, “family friendly” SUV, fully distanced from the global warming to which this gas guzzler contributes and the respiratory illnesses it cause in our and our neighbors’ children. Similarly, we buy our kids hamburger meals with “happy face” logos. But both parents and children would recoil with horror if suddenly forced to participate in the almost unspeakably cruel slaughter of the particular cow involved or to take a power saw to the rain forest or personally commit the other environmental crimes behind so many of our fast-food burgers. We turn the computer on without stopping to think that the power is supplied by a nearby nuclear power plant with all of its social and environmental risks. We even feel virtuous eating our vegetables, without a thought to the topsoil loss, pesticide pollution, and loss of diversity caused by their industrial-style production. If we paid attention to the sources of what we buy, we would find that we are complicit in myriad wrongdoings stemming from the technosphere’s systemic evil, which is not easily recognized because of the distancing involved.

Kimbrell refers to violence in his essay as evil, whether it be hot or cold, but to me, it’s about violence. It seems to me that those who eschew hot evil/violence in an effort to rehabilitate a system that engages in cold evil/violence, a system we all partake in to varying degrees, is not an eschewing at all, but rather a exchange of form of violence for another…..the other being the distanced variety of violence.

For some reason, the latest flurry of posts has me humming this ever so appropriate song.

I am a Rock, I am an Island

And a rock feels no pain
And an Island never cries

DoG save those subject to poor interpretation from the intrepid interpreters of their words.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LOL. EOM.

Let’s rephrase that for those not fully attuned to smug condescension:

“I presume you’ve not read the most important work of postwar German literature, but in the event you do please contemplate the meaning of the titular drum. Like recommending that I read Moby-Dick and not to forget giving some little thought to the whiteness of the whale. BTW, it’s “Günter”!

Indeed though it is amusing at times.

well, friends,
thanks for the food, we hopefully give to each other,
and thanks to Ian again for providing the platform.

What I have been thinking for quite some years now is ‘primary’ and ‘secondary’
psychopaths (PP), (SP) , but this maybe not the correct term.
Upon closer look this seems to be a self-reinforcing loop, which is at work here, where the PP motivate the (learned) SP, who are more numerous, to instate a structure, which we call the ‘state’, or more generally, a ‘system of thought and action’.
As long as this process prevails, it is the road to self-destruction, if its direction is not determined, or is driven by the ‘wrong’ –to us– force.

Nowadays it is called eg ‘austerity’, or ‘rational’ speculation on food and commodities, which starve people to death.
The nonsense and destructiveness of all this seems obvious to ‘Us’ here.

But the ‘system’ does not recognize that.
Why can that be?

A very strange assessment I recently found is via Paul Levy, meditating on Forbes’ notion of ‘Wetiko’:
…
“this disease, this Wetiko (cannibal) psychosis, is the greatest epidemic sickness known to man.”[vii] We, as a species, are in the midst of a massive psychic epidemic, a virulent collective psychosis that has been brewing in the cauldron of humanity’s psyche from the beginning of time.
…
Not to make this a cornerstone of my thinking, but Forbes has a point:
The dark other, as CG Jung said, is an active entity, and must be investigated.
This is Levy meditating about Forbes:
http://www.realitysandwich.com/greatest_epidemic

Narratives are VERY stable.
Like fairytales.

Via the narrative of ‘austerity’ versus ‘growth’, which is quite silly in itself, one has to ask, what sort of mind invents and propagates such silliness?
Malthus was a fellow of the East India Company.
Aha!

Chancellor Merkel, the latter day Thatcherian, is quite incorruptible, to be sure,
and one has to ask again what motivates her in her destructive drive, to destroy the EU?

It has something to do with protestant ethics in the Weberian sense.
Scarcity and relative reward/abundance have a mediator, which is THE supreme force.
Forbes/ Levy would interpret this as the dark-other, or the Wetiko-mind.
Not sure, if this is the last word -probably not- but we are nearer to the -ahem- ‘truth’ here.

I am exhausted.
Sorry.
Work in progress.

The protestors in Greece are growing bolder and angrier. I wonder how much more courage they need to work up before they band together and storm the parliament meeting? A hundred thousand or so of them would be enough. Storm it, cast out all the filth within, and burn it to the ground. Germany can suck on that.

on a broader scale, any money-system is also a value-system.

A local money-system can also develop/cultivate a local value-system. See all those local currencies spreading.
They keep the currency local, and also the the associated ‘values’.
A fictitous global currency in the extreme, may it be Gold or something other, would destroy these local valuations.

Greece has been a decent place, because of what?
Because their values fitted the place.

Any society has to be robust and self-confident enough, to stand the ups and downs of global tides.
It does this by placing its -ahem- local currency into the global mess.

How exactly are Maine Lobsters traded against Silicon-valley 8-core-Intel-processors?

See the point?

Ché Pasa

The southern Mediterranean –Egypt-Libya,Tunesia-… is in turmoil.

The northern Mediterranean also– Greece-Italy-Spain-Portugal.

Now, what’s the difference, exactly?

Must be the Muslims, right?

Yes, groo

It’s obviously the Muslims. But wait.

Wasn’t Greece at one time a province of the Perfidious Ottomans? Muslims, weren’t they? Wasn’t there once a mosque in the midst of the Parthenon?

Therefore the tumult must be due to the Mediterranean itself. That wine dark sea…

Morocco Bama
Cold Evil
~~~~~~~~~~~
Listened and read it twice.
Three things stood out for me;
Cold Evil: Evil is an interesting term which I don’t necessarily accept.
Theology centric: Alluded to a few times and an undercurrent through the talk; again, major problem with anything centered in theology. It was also addressed in the Q & A after-wards. Buzz words requiring a knowledge of or a construct of a belief system; his/theirs.
An assumed arrogance of moral superiority; the correctness of “his” belief system.

This isn’t to say he didn’t have anything salient to say; but it didn’t really resonate with me.
It reminded me of the “Ted Talks”, which I find disturbing at times; rarely listen anymore.
Of course, I’m also realizing, I’m so out of the mainstream western thought these days that I’m bordering on being a misanthrope.

Got it, Celsius, and I understand. It’s much easier to tune into Arthur Silber and listen to him beat his dead horse, or is it a cat, endlessly in the subways of despair and drop a few alms in his wooden cup, then to try and understand what drives people to do what they do. Theology, whether you like it or not, helps determine how many people act and behave. You can repudiate it all you like, but you can’t ignore it. It’s not ignoring you because you have to survive in this system, and this system is greatly affected by those who subscribe to theology of one sort or another. I say one sort or another, because theology comes in many forms, and in my opinion, doesn’t always have to involve a deity. Arthur has his own theology. His soapbox is as prominent as Creflo Dollar’sCreflo Dollar’s, absent the prodigious parishioners.

Celsius, your response to that article wasn’t critical thought at all and was severely lacking. After reading what you wrote about it, you could have used one word to describe your thoughts, and the effect would be the same. You could have said “meh.” Also, my response to you about your alleged critique is couched in the context of all your posts. You and T-Bear have espoused that you repudiate anything and everything anyone has to say from the U.S. Yet hypocritically, you consistently link to things people have to say who are currently residing in the U.S., i.e. Arthur Silber. I’m taking you, and T-Bear, at your word. You don’t care what I say, you don’t care what Kimbrell says, both of you have made that clear, so why do you bother? If you claim you repudiate, then repudiate, or else confess that that’s just tough talk and you didn’t really mean it.

I have some criticisms of the article myself, although by and large, it does resonate with me and validates much of what I have pondered over the years. I believe the article underscores what Ian has asserted here in regards to responsibility. In fact, it brings this song by Sting to mind when I read it. That song was the theme song of my monotonous, meaningless and wasteful commutes to downtown Atlanta back when I was shoveling coal into the Beast.

Here’s a fair and balanced analysis from the mainstream…a rarity, nay an aberration, these days.

Brian Stewart: The danger in shoving Greece too far

Should Greece “blow,” as some fear, the shockwaves could create similar unrest in other weakened European nations, battered by imposed austerity and few prospects of growth.

It’s hard not to conclude that those anxious to make an example of Greece, to force it either to bend to Europe’s will or to leave the eurozone altogether, may well get the result they want.

But it may prove a Pyrrhic victory — and the stuff of tragedy, which the Greeks, through the ages, have taught the world.

One person’s tragedy is another person’s liberation, I suppose.

Wait, Authur Silber has his own theology? I dunno about that…that may be stretching the term beyond reasonableness. And, comparing him to Creflo Dollar (btw, I LOVE his wife’s name – Taffi L. Dollar) is REALLY out there. I mean Silber’s a very old guy in very poor health who occasionally has to ask his readers for contributions just to survive. Creflo Dollar on the other hand…..

Celsius 233,

Heh. I don’t remember seeing you link to him but, I could be wrong. Maybe MB knows better…..

Here IS a link to Silber’s site.

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/

Find out directly.

T-Bear, in the midst of calling all “American” commentators “the herd” to which Celsius emphatically agreed, subsequently deposits this:

Formerly T-Bear permalink
January 13, 2012

Seldom does an opinion carry great weight, This one does:

http://powerofnarrative.blogspot.com/2012/01/varieties-of-pissing.html

It should be printed and framed, displayed upon the sacred places you have in your life.
And, should you have a few coin, the author is in dire health and needful of any generosity you might be able to generate. Follow the proffered links to discover the dimensionality of excellent essay.

To which Celsius replies:

Celsius 233 permalink
January 13, 2012

Arthur deconstructs the myth/lie with surgical precision. One of the best I’ve ever read.
I get a perverse satisfaction in my decision to leave almost 9 years ago.
I thank the gods I learned the truth more than 40 years ago while a young man in my 20′s facing the draft for Viet Nam.
Thanks T-bear; not many walking this sometimes lonely path.

The point is not that I disagree with what Silber says, or how he says it, the point is in the context of how Silber was presented.

And then, here we have yet another link to an Establishment U.S. scholar/journalist presented by the repudiating T-Bear and Celsius’s prostration before it.

Formerly T-Bear permalink
January 30, 2012

An exquisite piece of writing appeared in translation on Juan Cole’s Informed Comment and is worth the read:

http://www.juancole.com/2012/01/beji-we-are-all-tunisian-jews.html

if not a bookmark.

Celsius 233 permalink
January 30, 2012

Formerly T-Bear
January 30, 2012

_____________
As usual; hammer-on-nail. I’ve advocated this (Nicole Foss a.k.a. Stoneleigh at The Automatic Earth) for years here and elsewhere; to no avail.
Community; without it, all fails as evident in America today.
If I could have gotten through the stupid social cliques in the small communities in which I lived in the states I’d have probably stayed.
Failing that; fuck ‘em; let them hold hands and sing kumbai ya as they go to hell in their carefully constructed and protected fantasies they think is a reality.

I’ll definitely check out your Juan Cole link and get back to you. Cheers.

There’s nothing wrong with any of that, obviously, unless, and until, this is triumphantly articulated:

Formerly T-Bear permalink
February 5, 2012

Like Celsius 233, expatriated from the nowadays “homeland” is also my story. There are no voices that speak for me from that country, nor is it likely there will ever be. Repudiation of those rude voices pretending to speak with such authority should be automatically assumed; they are voices of ignorance and fools, their words given appropriate weight, you will find no pearls hidden in their garbage.

I also agree with your comment to Ian; which, once again, makes me question WTF am I doing commenting here or anywhere else?
Oh well, the beat goes on, no?
Cheers Bear…

So, we have them, meaning Celsius and T-Bear, essentially claiming, or effectively claiming, it’s “the Americans” which is eerily similar to the Nazis claiming it’s “The Jews” and henceforth “repudiating” anything the “American” herd has to say, all the while linking to and high-fiving some things that some of the “American” herd have to say, and then pretending that they never did any such thing, and claiming innocence in the matter.

Celsius has the nerve to refer to me as the thought police, yet he agrees with T-Bear that I should be banned, or the comments section should be invite only for the “grown-ups.”

So, ks, if that’s the basis on which you want to build a revolution, have at it. We’ll see how that works out. If you want to throw your lot in with those who call you herd animal, and look down their noses at you and say you are not worth saving, and that if you want to save yourself, your only hope is to globe trot, then hey, have at it. For me, I can’t stand with that, because that’s not standing. That’s running and hiding behind a tree, and sniping anyone who’s trying to stand up. That’s not solidarity. That’s not support. That’s not collaboration. That’s sabotage, and it’s aiding and abetting the enemy, so excuse me if I take issue with it.

And yes, Silber is in the business of flogging this dead horse. We know it’s a dead horse, so we are, or we should be, at the next stage which is why it happened and what to do about it, not you’re fucked over and over again until it no longer has any meaning.

Okay, so I was wrong, I forgot about that. So, fucking shoot me.

So would it be fair for me to assume that it was *MB* to whom you were referring when you were making your regular litany of vague and cryptic aspersions such as “removing all doubt”?

Triple post! Yet another way in which people are killing irony, apparently here too: quoting Arthur Silber while simultaneously decrying the moral perfectionism of others.

Formerly T-Bear PERMALINK
February 18, 2012
For the non-involved readers, Celsius 233 had not linked to Arthur Silber, I did. I have also linked to others whose writing portrays exceptional points of view or express their opinions in an intelligent thoughtful way that would not have ready access to this audience. Apparently only MB’s opinion will be allowed in these comments. If it is allowed so, you will be the poorer for it.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In the end it doesn’t matter. I stand by everything I’ve said on this forum; everything.

______________

Thanks to;
John Puma PERMALINK
February 18, 2012

For the Arthur Silber link; I went there and spent 30 or 40 minutes reading his last 3 posts; good stuff all.
I am guilty of being old and a little forgetful at times, but no ill intention is ever meant or implied. I speak rather directly at times so as not to be mis-understood.

As to MB, well, I feel somewhat badly for him; he seems to need to control the narrative and has taken great umbrage with myself and T-Bear for whatever reason which remains unclear to me and frankly I don’t much care and don’t want a 10 page essay on the muddled thinking that would go with it.
I will continue to post as long as I feel I’m welcome here. So far only one very prolific poster seems to have a problem with my opinions or comments.
Need to read more of Silber…

No, the EU does not need to get its shit together. The EU needs to be put asunder, and the people of Greece are going to lead that effort in a fiery clash. The EU has shown itself for what it truly is. We all now know, and perhaps some of us always did know, it is not the way to prosperity, in the rightful sense of that word, not in the sense that that term has been used by the Plutocracy. It is too late, and counter-intuitive, to rehabilitate a system that has created such poor outcomes. It has to go, and I’m afraid the only way it can go is through conflict of some sort. As Ian has said on numerous occasions, either way there is going to be pain. So, you can self-administer it, or you can wait and allow the Plutocracy to administer it. The former can ultimately lead to empowerment, the latter to peonage, slavery and destitution.

I have found that when one disagrees with me, I am either wrong or have been misunderstood, or even some combination of both.

Either way, it is up to me to correct the error, through research and speaking/writing more clearly.

Attempts to clear up the problem by analyzing the individual(s) who disagree with me have, without fail, been quixotic and counterproductive to my self-education – indeed, to the education of any parties, involved or simply observing.

(I am aware that the previous sentence is a bit of a paradox, if one is inclined to read it as a judgment/recommendation for himself or herself… so please don’t do that.)

Everyone here has contributed to my self-education. I would miss anyone who ceased contributing.

/highhorse

groo! I am jumping over to read those links right now, thank you. I also absorbed Jaynes’ book in my twenties.

In the meantime, I point you (and others) to this TED talk as well, that you may not have yet seen, which discusses this in a very dramatic and subjective way:

Jill Bolte Taylor’s stroke of insight

MB – it is rather eerie. I watched the Jill Bolte Taylor talk just two days ago…