The answer, in London, is at least 333 since 1998, and no convictions of cops.
Much higher percentage of blacks than their percentage of the population, of course. 333 dying in police custody.
Per year, that’s about 25.
Now, there are two possibilities as I see it. Either:
1) the police are beating a ton of people, and some of them can’t take it; or,
2) they are deliberately beating certain specific individuals to death.
Which do you think it is?
Added on top of what we know about the London police’s relationship with Murdoch’s papers, where they were receiving millions of pounds in bribes, I think it’s a safe conclusion to reach that the Met police are rotten from top to bottom.
(note: corrected from “mostly blacks” to much higher percentage. My bad.)
Correction #2: the IPCC reports show most died due to neglect rather than deliberate harm. Not sure I entirely buy it, but there it is. Mea culpa, I jumped the gun. Beat me up in comments as appropriate.
beowulf
Remarkable considering that thanks to modern medicine, a young body can survive an awful lot of punishment. During WWII, US fatality to wounded ratio was 1 to 1.65, in the Iraq war it was 1 to 7. So clearly 333 is the tip of the iceberg.
Linking through to the report, it says most of the deaths in custody were “natural causes”, typically drug or alcohol abuse. Which is absurd, if the police arrest someone who truly is ODing on drugs or alcohol, they’d d take him straight to the hospital to die or more likely– modern medicine and all that– survive.
“Natural causes” sounds more like, if you were drunk when the police beat you, the paperwork will say its the demon rum that killed you.
Ghostwheel
I had no idea!
London sounds worse than any city in the USA’s Deep South, if that’s at all possible.
Can abuse on such a scale go on if not sanctioned from the top levels?
grs
That’s messed up.
Not to detract from the deaths, but did you notice the other interesting statistic: “(Haringey, the borough that includes Tottenham, has the fourth highest level of child poverty in London and an unemployment rate of 8.8%, double the national average, with one vacancy for every 54 seeking work in the borough.)”
Say what you like about inefficiencies about calculating the true unemployment rate, but the U.S. has rate of 9.2% Many states have been in the double digits for years now.
BDBlue
It’s a horrific number any way you look at it, but according to a link I got from the Guardian article you linked to states that 75% of those who died in custody were white. And I can’t tell, but it looks like the 333 figure goes beyond London (there’s a mention of Wales in the piece).
None of which changes your larger point, which is that it’s a completely unacceptable number of people (and I’m betting while they weren’t all black, a large percentage of them were poor or working class) and definitely clarifies why there’s so much anger at the police (in addition to the allegation of almost daily harassment). I do think an one of the major reasons for so much rioting and unrest everywhere – not just London – is the complete lack of accountability by the state and those important to the state. Of the 333 deaths, not only were no police officers convicted of a crime, but only 13 officers were even prosecuted. Not all of the deaths appear to have been violent (some were overdoses, for example), but even those that weren’t appear to have been neglectful and there’s no doubt that certain populations’ well-being are more likely to be neglected by police than others. I’m betting none of the dead were rich.
Awful.
Morocco Bama
How many of you would the police have to beat to death before you rioted?
It should read…….how many of you would the police have to beat to death before you burned down your neighbor’s liquor store where you get your Ripple?
If we’re talking an eye for an eye, it shouldn’t be all that difficult to find out where some of the police officers responsible for the deaths live and mete out justice accordingly, and even then, the disparity that leads to this predicament still exists, so injustice will continue to exist despite the pounds of flesh taken.
Morocco Bama
Here’s a short clip from NPR on the “Riots” in London. I listen to it, as should you, with the idea in mind that NPR reports according to a predetermined perspective. Considering that, they do provide some alternating views on the situation from different sources/individuals, underscoring the complexity of the issue. NPR’s good like that, but despite their acknowledgment of complexity, I feel they use the cover of complexity to promulgate their agenda of containment reporting. I despise it because it’s covert and psychologically manipulative. Note the focus on the looting. I’m not denying that there is looting going on, but it precisely supports my point that aimlessly looting and burning, even on a small scale, is throwing a bone to the corporate-owned media. They can now paint you as Beasts, and the cycle continues.
That being said, I won’t throw babies out with bathwater, and there are some babies in this piece.
Toward the end of the piece, they describe how the social media is being used by the youth to engage in what can be described as Flash Mob Vandalism. The same thing is going on in Philadelphia. What comical about this is how the social media was credited with the insurrection in Egypt, and it was painted as a positive thing. The implication was “hey, look, you luddites, Facebook and Twitter will set you free.” Not so in the case with vandalism of small businesses in London and elsewhere in the U.K. Quite the opposite, in fact. The Social Media is your ball and chain….it helps you to cut those self-inflicted wounds even deeper, and the Elite, in conjunction with the Deep State, are all to happy to provide you with the latest and greatest knives available. Who needs food, health and education so long as they have their social media to carve themselves up into bite-size pieces?
http://www.npr.org/player/v2/mediaPlayer.html?action=1&t=1&islist=false&id=139220005&m=139219990
JustMe
Along the lines of the NPR constraints, you might find this interesting regarding the media as “moral entrepreneurs” – http://globalsociology.com/2011/08/09/in-which-moral-entrepreneurs-should-stfu/
John B.
that is very interesting M.B.
Lisa Simeone
JustMe, fascinating essay on “moral entrepreneurs.” And excerpting from Nina Power’s nuanced column:
The same politicians now denouncing the mindless violence of the mob all supported a system of political economy that was as unstable as it was pernicious. They should have known that their policies would lead to disaster. They didn’t know. Who then is more mindless?
The global economic crisis is at least as political as the riots we’ve seen in the last few days. It has lasted far longer and done far more damage. We need not draw a straight line from the decision to bail out the banks to what’s going on now in London. But we must not lose sight of what both events tell us about our current condition. Those who want to see law and order restored must turn their attention to a menace that no amount of riot police will disperse; a social and political order that rewards vandalism and the looting of public property, so long as the perpetrators are sufficiently rich and powerful.”
I can’t argue with that. I also can’t argue with MO’s analysis of the NPR report, especially since I used to work there and I know how hard they strive to be mainstream with a capital “M” (not a compliment in my book).
I do want to relate one story about rioting/violence from my experience: In the ’90s I worked with a guy who had cut his teeth on the protests of the ’60s. He had done a lot of good work for civil rights, penal reform, anti-war, Vietnam vets, etc. All the progressive movements you can think of and with which I believe Ian is in synch. This guy, whom I’ll call X, came by his bona fides honestly.
But X told me a story I’ll never forget, and that opened my eyes. He had been involved, with a friend, in a riot that resulted in severe injury to a cop, a cop who is in a wheelchair to this day. The cop had been on horseback. When I asked X what the riot had been about, he said to me, “It wasn’t about anything. We just wanted to crack a few skulls.”
X is still well known in this town; that’s why I’m not naming him. He told me this story privately.
Call me naive, but I was shocked, at the time, by his tale. He and his buddy, who were otherwise politically engaged, educated, blah blah blah, just wanted to “crack a few skulls.” So they put a guy in a wheelchair. Mission Accomplished.
I can’t help but think of this story anytime I hear of riots taking place. Again, as I’ve said before on this blog, I know people have legitimate complaints, I know people are being abused by the elites and the PTB, I know violence is being visited on them every day, in all sorts of ways. They are being wronged, repeatedly, systematically, in the most egregious ways.
But X is not alone in his experience. I hesitate to bring testosterone into this discussion, which is already overflowing with many different, complex issues. But ya know, if testosterone is an element on Wall Street, and god knows it is, it sure as hell is an element elsewhere. And if anyone should be pissed, and raging against the injustice done to them, it’s women, who not only are suffering the same abuses at the hands of the State as men, but more, in the form of relentless domestic violence and rape (in the case of the banlieues of Paris, systematic gang rape by their supposed compatriots). So why aren’t more women taking up cudgels, and ganging up on men, and looting and bashing skulls?
Not trying to derail the discussion, just throwing another element into the mix.
P.S. In Dalston, a north London neighborhood, primarily Turkish and Kurd, the residents policed themselves. They stood outside their businesses and homes, armed mostly with broken cue sticks, and fended off hordes of looters, whom the residents said weren’t from their own neighborhood, but who came from outside to loot and terrorize. And yes, these residents who defended themselves and their neighborhood were men.
guest
“How many of you would the police have to beat to death before you rioted?
It should read…….how many of you would the police have to beat to death before you burned down your neighbor’s liquor store where you get your Ripple?”
I am getting sick of this logic. Apparently the long predicted social unrest due to austerity measures and other underlying socio-economic ills can’t be attributed as such until those responsible publish a coherent manifesto and act rationally. Sorry folks, this is what you get with a race of people (humans) who are 99% stupid and/or ignorant. The teabaggers are incoherent and acting against their own economic and political interests on many/most issues. Just because they are deficit scolds, doesn’t mean the deficit brought them about (thus there absence during the Bush years). And just because these rioters are mostly thugs whose violence is mostly (not entirely) indiscriminate doesn’t mean this is not a symptom of austerity.
Notorious P.A.T.
“I hesitate to bring testosterone into this discussion”
Hormones don’t just appear out of nowhere; they can be generated by a person’s activity.
Cujo359
BDBlue writes:
Yes, most were white, and most, according to that article you quoted, were due to neglect or incompetence on the part of the jail staff (many of whom, for instance, do not know first aid):
A few of those 333 deaths were due to the police either not showing up in time, or not taking a potential crime seriously enough to try to prevent it.
I don’t know where that “nearly all black” comes from, but that’s not what this report says of the 333 deaths, and I don’t see how anyone can confuse 75% white with almost all black. That must be from a different statistic, or from someone’s imagination.
ks
I’m sorry Lisa but the “testosterone poisioning” argument is pretty weak. Not all men or young men are rioting in London and thereabouts and as you pointed out, other men elsewhere are standing fast. I’ve seen the comparison you made of the different reactions of men and women to their oppresion elsewhere but I think it’s a bit off. Especially in this case where you are comparing the violent reaction of mostly men who, are reacting to the specific violent action of a state actor (the police), to what you imagine is the general non-violent recation of women to their oppression. The influence of testosterone, or the lack thereof aside, that’s a bad comparison. Do you really think that women attacking random men to protest the general oppression of women would be comparable to the situation in London? Also, even a casual search reveals a long history of women violently resisting their oppression though not too many recent events.
This brings me to a point I wanted to raise and I’m going to use your story about X as a jumping off point. Why did X’s story stand out to you and open your eyes? After all, I’m sure X could have, and did, tell you dozens of stories about the police killing, crippling, beating many many innocent people without any reason. So, why was the “reverse” so eye opening? I’m not claiming what I’m about to say is what you’re thinking but, I’ve noticed a pattern of thought post Ghandi and MLK that I’ve taken to calling the “burden of the morally superior oppressed people”. Apparently, in order for one to legitimately resist one’s oppression these days, not only must one be right, one must resist in only the approved manner. What’s even stranger is that this standard only seems to apply to certain people. For example, in South Africa they had to renounce violence, embrace non-violence and forgive their oppressors and let them keep control of the economic levers (heh) in order to be legitimate while the Romanians could chase the Ceausescus down, give them a fake trial and immediately kill them thereafter and nobody said boo about legitimacy.
Anyway, back to the London riots, I don’t think it’s a political event per se but it is a common one. It’s more of a “straw that broke the camel’s back” type of event with all of the predictable but misguided lashing out.
groo
Funny how a society which brought forth Adam Smith, Charles Darwin, George Orwell and Aldous Huxley and gave asylum to Karl Marx, degenerated into such a sorry state.
How can that be?
The current state is, that GB is one of the most unequal societies -property-wise. (Forget ‘income’. This is not very relevant.)
As I recall, ca 90% of the land in GB belongs to the old aristocrats.
The city of London is a jurisdiction of its own.
Finance is between 20 and 30% GB-GDP, mostly located in London’s financial district.
Testosterone as ‘risk taking’ plays a central role in both poles of the conflict– the inner city versus the slums.
Both say: ‘f*** You’!
As such, this is an asymmetric conflict ofcourse, but based on the SAME ingredients.
And obviously not much thinking about the ‘good society’.
It simply does not interest them!
One party feeds the ‘animal spirits’ into the abstract of finance, the other into pure physis.
Is that any wonder?
Interestingly enough, its mainly the middle class, which gets crushed, BOTH ideologically AND materially.
(e.g. the ‘underclass’ has nothing to loose material-wise.)
So it has to choose sides.
On the other side, the ‘middle class’ does not a lot of thinking.
Lack of time?
It chooses sides, based on conditioned ‘wisdoms’, rarely on real -ahem- ‘thinking’.
They do’nt have the time.
The conflicts have to rise up to a level, where these questions get their due timeslot.
Strange economy, that.
But so it seems to be for me.
Somehow this is a French Revolution moment.
Robespierre, a lawyer, finally allied with the underclass.
Read Robespierre, who later on was condemned by the aspiring Bourgeosie after Napoleon.
He had a point.
Ian Welsh
Blue, that’s a much much higher percentage of blacks than in the general population. Thanks for the catch though, changing post to correct.
Notorious P.A.T.
A quick sidebar: any additions for the venerable topic of “What Obama can really do?”
https://www.ianwelsh.net/what-could-obama-have-done-and-what-can-obama-still-do/
Morocco Bama
And just because these rioters are mostly thugs whose violence is mostly (not entirely) indiscriminate doesn’t mean this is not a symptom of austerity.
And I never said it wasn’t, so take your Strawman and stuff it up your logical ass. If you had followed what I had said on other threads here, you would realize that I predicted this….which really isn’t a prediction, as much as a mathematical extrapolation. I think everyone and their mother are projecting what they want into what’s happening in London and, most importantly, why it’s happening, when the reality of the situation may be quite different. I’m commenting on observed behavior. It is not illogical to state that it is idiotic to burn your neighbor’s house and small business…..because all the folks on Twitter are doing it.
karmanot
Death by cop is a tradition in the US, particularly in the South.
BDBlue
Yes, Ian that is disproportionately high. I had started to look up the stats to see how high this morning, but ran out of time and had to go to work. 🙂 I have time now, however, and just ran the numbers and it appears that as of 2001, blacks made up about 2% of the population of the UK (a little more than 3% if you include mixed race persons in that figure). It’s about the same as the Indian/Pakistani population. So while more than 90% of the population is white, only 75% of victims were white.
There’s even more disproportion if you look at the deaths where police were present as opposed to those where the police were not. The report found “that over one-third of cases in which a Black detainee died occurred in circumstances in which police actions may have been a factor, this rises to almost one-half if the cases of accidental death where the police were present compared with only 4% of cases where the detainee was White.” So where white people died it appears it was more often neglect and less an appearance of direct police involvement. It also may be important to note that there had recently been a couple of high profile deaths of blacks while in police custody. See the article here, which discusses the high profile deaths and the report’s findings in more detail, especially with regard to blacks, than the Guardian piece.
BDBlue
Thought you might like this piece by Arthur Silber, which links this piece that provides background on the relationship of the police to the people of Tottenham.
Lisa Simeone
By the way, sorry, I realized I explained part of the story of X badly: he and his buddy were directly responsible for putting the cop in the wheelchair. X’s father was well connected and somehow got him off the hook for injuring the cop. I don’t remember if he paid off the family or what, but he somehow got his son out of trouble.
ks, the reason I said it had opened my eyes in this instance was because my eyes were already open to the brutality and oppression innocent people faced. I already knew that. What I was surprised to find out was that this guy and his friend, two supposedly enlightened people, concerned with working for the good of society, had deliberately set out to hurt somebody — or two or three. That’s what I found eye-opening.
And again, I’m not advancing an argument, re the London riots, that “testosterone made them do it.” I’m saying don’t discount the element of guys wanting to brawl. That’s all. One element. It’s not all simply “The People rising up against The Man.” Because, as MO keeps pointing out, the people are hurting their own. And yes, once this kind of violence is unleashed, it tends to sweep up all in its midst, indiscriminately, so that not just The Man gets taught a lesson or gets hurt. Lots of people get hurt. And The Man might not be learning the lesson you think he should learn.
ks
“….once this kind of violence is unleashed,…
Therein lies the issue Lisa. This kind of violence was unleashed long before the riot. It just wasn’t called violence and was largely ignored. They were called “isolated incidents”. To echo Ian’s point, after the 1000th “isolated incident”, all hell finally brakes loose and people are shocked (not the folks here) and decry violence? I don’t think the London riot is a rising up against the Man type of thing for the most part either but, I’m not sure I see much real difference, in terms of violence, between the daily harrassment, the routine beatings, the occasional killings vs. a burning cars and looting outburst except for who is doing the what and who is operating with the approval of society.
Once the fires are extinguished, the glass swept away, all the usual suspects rounded up and “order” is restored, most folks will go back to largely ignoring the violence until the next time an “isolated incident” sparks a riot and “this kind of violence is unleashed” again.
Diana Prince
guest
“I am getting sick of this logic. Apparently the long predicted social unrest due to austerity measures and other underlying socio-economic ills can’t be attributed as such until those responsible publish a coherent manifesto and act rationally.”
———————————-
I agree. Riots are n0t about acting “rationally” – they are a spontaneous outburst generally fueled by frustration and rage due to socio-economic inequality. It’s one thing to criticize the tactics of a planned protest – but this is clearly not the case – and mocking people by implying they are stupid/counter productive isn’t particularly insightful commentary. This kind of unrest happens when people are frustrated, angry, feel they have nothing to lose and no one is listening. I highly doubt the participants are concerned about how the media is going to interpret and spin these events.
Note – Before someone tells me that I’m an idiot/using “red herrings”/Strawmen arguments/or that I’m an illiterate rube – it’s just my opinion. I agree with Guest – mocking people who are clearly at the end of their rope just rubs me the wrong way. Clearly many people are upset about legal and socioeconomic injustice which results in lashing out/rioting. Again – just my opinion.
Morocco Bama
This kid is fed up with the police beatings….can’t you tell? The Asian guy deserves to have his store vandalized and looted….his prices were too high. That’ll teach him and those Coppers.
Free Ripple.
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/10/article-2024203-0D5EF66400000578-774_470x728.jpg
At least they’re smart enough to stay out of jail, unlike some protesters in the U.S. who use jail time as protest.
Morocco Bama
Oliver Twist never had a sweat suit and tennis shoes like that! My, how times have changed. Artful Dodgers are no longer artful…..just Dodgers.
Ian Welsh
Neglect, eh? Given no cop has ever been convicted of squat, I wonder what that means. “We beat him earlier, but you can’t prove that.” Or “we threw him in with some guys we know would rape and beat him, then left him there in his own blood and vomit till he died.”
Petro
Well said, ks.
Check out this particularly oily dismissal of the “context” of the violence.
Despicable.
Diana Prince
BDBlue
Silber is consistently fantastic 🙂 Re the article in counterpunch – I agree – “provides background on the relationship of the police to the people of Tottenham”.
ks
Petro,
Goodness that was an awful and stunningly stupid article.
Morocco Bama
Hey, let’s make something clear. I’m not condemning anyone. I’m commenting on the idiocy of inflicting further suffering on oneself. I’m an equal opportunity commenter, meaning no action gets a free pass from critical judgment, regardless of the “perceived” rational. Have any of you heard the comments from Duggan’s family, They are disheartened and very distressed about the ensuing riots. It’s not their wish…..and I get the feeling, it wouldn’t have been Duggan’s either. Mob Violence is Mob Violence, regardless of the class perpetrating it. At least the Upper Classes, and Middle Classes, when they have engaged in it, directed it at targets other than themselves. That’s not an excuse for the senselessness and depravity of Mob Violence, but harming your own class with it is beyond the pale. Frankly, at this point, this is no longer about social and political equality. This has taken on a life of its own. It’s evil regardless of who is perpetrating it, and in principle I don’t condone it, nor would I ever engage in it……EVER!
That being said, yes, I agree it’s not rational, and I understand the rusty wire that holds the anger in is giving way. I don’t want the people who have been oppressed, everywhere, not just the U.K., to suffer any more, especially at their own hands.
And sorry, but all classes have their share of Bad Apples. I’m not going to make excuses for any of them.
Petro
@Morocco –
I tend to agree with Silber (BDBlue provided the link above):
The temptation to pass some sort of judgement is strong – perhaps irresistible – but I think Arthur makes a strong point about simply witnessing history. Anything else really is just moralizing and wishful thinking.
What is interesting, and very counterintuitive, is that applying that to the violence being done by “the elites” is exactly the same thing.
Think about that!
(My Zen koan for the day. 😉 )
Diana Prince
Morocco Bama PERMALINK
August 10, 2011
“This kid is fed up with the police beatings….can’t you tell? The Asian guy deserves to have his store vandalized and looted….his prices were too high. That’ll teach him and those Coppers.”
—————————
None of the commenters have made this argument. As I very clearly stated – in my opinion, riots are not about rational behavior – so I honestly do not understand your reply at all. If you want to mock these people for being stupid, then go ahead – but don’t misrepresent what I said.
————————–
Morocco Bama PERMALINK
“At least they’re smart enough to stay out of jail, unlike some protesters in the U.S. who use jail time as protest.”
—————–
Again, I have no idea why you continue to misrepresent (blatantly lie) re what I said in another thread when I mentioned my arrest during a protest against the war in Iraq. As I said very clearly and repeatedly (which you deliberately ignored) – I participated in civil disobedience and was arrested. It was not my intention at all to be arrested. I was not arrested for being stupid or for illegal behavior (and honestly, I think it’s kind of mean-spirited to ridicule someone as not “smart enough to stay out of jail”). As I said clearly stated before – the city was sued for entrapment and false arrest which resulted in a significant amount of cash (thousands of dollars) for many of the protesters including myself. Additionally, my testimony helped an activist who was being targeted unfairly by the police for felony charges.
Also – it is not uncommon for activists to be arrested as a symbolic form of protest. I can’t find the article right now (though I really think this is common knowledge) – but several high profile people were deliberately arrested in front of the White House. They knelt down, put their hands behind their back and waited to be handcuffed. You can make the argument that it isn’t productive and failed to prevent the invasion of Iraq. However, trying to pretend that it isn’t a common form of civil disobedience is intellectually dishonest.
BDBlue
Ian, I probably could’ve used a better word choice than neglect. An oversimplification, but it looks like there were essentially two categories of folks who died in police custody – ones who died because they’d been assaulted, “restrained”, etc., by the police and others who died of overdoses/alcohol poisoning, etc. It seems to me that it’s the first group that would most call out for prosecutions (which is not to excuse the second group). Based on the articles I linked, unsurprisingly, blacks were overwhelmingly represented in the first group. In other words, they didn’t just die because police may have failed to recognize that they needed medical attention or were poorly trained or just didn’t give a shit, they died directly at police hands. And while I certainly understand the argument that there isn’t a moral difference in the two groups, I think the racial breakdown tells another story.
ks
Who is making excuses for anybody? Sure, there’s the usual opportunists and hustlers who are taking advantage of a spontaneous outbust to ongoing oppression but that’s not a surprise. What’s all this “harming your own class” stuff? People who are pushed to the point that they feel they have nothing to lose damned sure aren’t thinking about “class solidarity”. The odd thing is that the people who are being mocked for their idiocy, did all the “right” things in the face of oppression before they finally lost it. Each time something happened, they wrote letters and blogs, they held rallies, they peacefully protested and all they got was further scorn and a foot pressed down harder on their necks. Finally, they exploded and here we are for the millionth time.
Don’t worry, we won’t have to sit in judement of them too much longer. They’ll shortly go back to their miserable lives and we can ignore them until the next time. Meanwhile we can riot when our sports teams WIN!? (really never understood that) and lose. Go team!
Morocco Bama
Whether I condone it or not is fucking irrelevant, you pompous ass.
I like a lot of what Arthur says, and agree with it, but this is bullshit. Of course it’s irrelevant as to the effect it would have on the current situation, but at the individual level it’s extremely meaningful, and when you add up all the individual levels, you approximate 7 billion….and that sure as hell is relevant, I would say. So know, I’m not going to ignore principle because no one gives a damn. It begins with me,,,,,and according to Arthur’s arrogance, he would have it end with me as he cheers on the rape of my wife and daughter and a brick to the head of my son for no other reason than just “Being There.”
There appears to be a kind of perverse enjoyment of this by some people who are not directly affected by it. I’m convinced that the majority of people from these communities do not want this, and are powerless to stop the marauders…with some notable exceptions (Turks & Pakis protecting their homes and businesses). This is not justice. This is further injustice that will beget even more injustice. I can’t cheer it, and I won’t justify, even if I understand that it was inevitable and there’s nothing I can do, or say, that will change that fact.
Petro
I confess to that accusation (and like to think I still would even if I were directly affected), however…
I agree with this as well.
Lisa Simeone
LONDON — Still reeling with shock and anger over the worst rioting in decades, Britain turned on Wednesday to a tough reckoning with the perpetrators, even as the police and political leaders worried about a potentially explosive new pattern of interracial violence that could be set off by the past four days of mayhem.
. . .
Three young men of Pakistani descent were killed there early on Wednesday morning when a car mounted a sidewalk and crashed into a group of residents who had gathered to protect local businesses from attack. Witnesses said that the driver appeared to be of Afro-Caribbean descent, and the police arrested a 32-year-old man and charged him with murder.
. . .
One surprise was the presence among the riot suspects lined up in police wagons outside courthouses in London and other cities of young men and women with regular jobs. That raised questions as to why they been caught up in the kind of mayhem that has traditionally drawn on an underclass of alienated young people, with no jobs and few prospects.
Many of those who were remanded for trial appeared to come from just those kind of backgrounds, evidence as some commentators saw it that the root causes of the disorders lay in social deprivation and despair. But those who stood before the courts for bail hearings in London, many of them still in their jeans and hooded sweatshirts, included a graphic designer, a postal employee, a dental assistant, a teaching aide, a forklift truck driver and a youth worker, among others.
One 19-year-old woman was listed on court documents as living in a converted farmhouse in a leafy, upmarket area of rural Kent that is part of what Londoners call the stockbroker belt. A 22-year-old woman gave her address as an upscale block of flats in a gentrified neighborhood of Hackney, one of the worst-hit riot areas in London. Local residents said that many of the residents of the apartments, which are valued at about $500,000, belonged to a community of affluent, middle-class people with jobs in London’s news media and art world.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/11/world/europe/11britain.html?hp&gwh=7A89460AF5A76CED3D47710810D915E4
ks
It begins with me,,,,,and according to Arthur’s arrogance, he would have it end with me as he cheers on the rape of my wife and daughter and a brick to the head of my son for no other reason than just “Being There.”
Wait a second. That is very disingenuous and dishonest beyond reason. If you read the article you know that Aurthur is not cheering on anything. That’s absolutely ridiculous. In fact, he goes into considerable detail to explain why he’s against violence. What’s he clearly doing is chastising those who are sitting safely away from the mayhem and continuing oppression, aka you, who are sitting and judging the “idiocy” of the people who finally met violence with violence.
Lisa Simeone
From that same NYT article, and speaking to MO’s points:
Tariq Jahan, the father of the youngest of the three victims, described bloodying his hands in a failed bid to restore his son’s breathing, then turned to an appeal for all in the community, including Muslims and those of other groups who had joined in the rioting, to renounce violence. “Why? Why?” he said.
ks
Lisa, thanks for providing the mainstream framing. Clearly it was just groups of thugs and white hipsters looking to cause trouble. Nothing to see here. Let’s move along. I wouldn’t want to be accused of cheering anything on. But really I love the framing. It’s expert propaganda:
“One surprise was the presence among the riot suspects lined up in police wagons outside courthouses in London and other cities of young men and women with regular jobs. That raised questions as to why they been caught up in the kind of mayhem that has traditionally drawn on an underclass of alienated young people, with no jobs and few prospects.
Many of those who were remanded for trial appeared to come from just those kind of backgrounds, evidence as some commentators saw it that the root causes of the disorders lay in social deprivation and despair. But those who stood before the courts for bail hearings in London, many of them still in their jeans and hooded sweatshirts, included a graphic designer, a postal employee, a dental assistant, a teaching aide, a forklift truck driver and a youth worker, among others.
I just love how certain mayhem “traditionally” draws on certain people and that despite the fact that many come from that um…traditional…background, they focus on those who don’t and wonder gosh! how could they be involved in such…untraditional?….for them, mayhem.
Morocco Bama
who finally met violence with violence.
It’s not meeting violence with violence, it’s “yeah bitch, you think you can fuck with us…well, watch this, I’ll show you how to fuck with us…..take that….we’re better at it than youse blokes, fucking with us I mean, any day.”
I addressed Petro’s quote of Arthur. No, I didn’t read the whole article, just what Petro posted.
And besides, Arthur chastises himself with his own comment. If that’s his logic, he’s as irrelevant as the rest of us who have our opinions. Comments like his are meant to dismiss, marginalize and end discussion.
Morocco Bama
And, I will add, Arthur slams Bageant with that comment, as he makes it from the safety and security of his humble abode.
ks
“It’s not meeting violence with violence, it’s “yeah bitch, you think you can fuck with us…well, watch this, I’ll show you how to fuck with us…..take that….we’re better at it than youse blokes, fucking with us I mean, any day.”
Huh, where did you get that from? I like that you tossed in the accent but, that’s not what started this. This started as a reaction to a suspicious police shooting and blew up from there.
Bernard
to think rioters “think” about where to riot. like not rioting in their own neighborhood. while this would be a good idea for those who live there, i can’t imagine riots are planned with any foresight, while what would be good was if the riots happened in the Elite’s part of town. Riots usually are instantaneous and not planned, as far as location is concerned, i would think. something ticks people off, and usually riots happens where that incident occur.
when the whole world sucks/when people give up on hope, like what Obama has done to America, fighting back is the first response. i can’t imagine there is much thinking about where to riot or to fight..
demoralized people have given up on so much of what others still have hope for.
the mansions of the rich and powerful are usually far from the poor and hopeless ” scum” that eventually riot when they have reached their limit of “oppression” and abuse. those poor are kept far from those “worthy” Rich. by design, not by accident,
want to see the police respond quickly? have riots in the Elites’ part of town. so fast my head would spin. those in power creates safe zones far away from all those “worth-less” others. the Elites who own everyone else don’t allow the “riffraff” near them
i think of the Old South with their plantations and how the burning of the plantations was a sign of getting rid of one symbol of evil. The Rich know better now than to be near the poor they abuse.
so many in the lower classes lose when there is a riot or urban upheaval. bringing the costs back to the Rich is what needs to be done. how that is done is another question.
Good always suffers with the Bad. so the one way to stop the Bad from making things worse is to do what is all our of interests, not just in the Rich’s benefit. the Middle Class is always told by the Haves and Have Mores how they are much better than “those” Poor suckers.
for too many years now, the Rich have sold the Middle Class a bill of goods. Now the Poor is just fed up with all the hatred, abuse and killing. the Poor have nothing to lose. The Poor have lost any hope of belonging to that World outside their neighborhood.
the Middle Class has been buying the lies and propaganda of the Rich for years now. the Middle Class is not blameless in these riots. the Middle Class helped set the stage for what we see now. until the Middle Class owns up to and sees how easily they have been screwed by the Rich, and set up like the “hopeless” poor, this situation will continue. the Middle Class is just as responsible for the riots as the Rich.
Maybe one day the Middle Class will wake up to see how they too are being screwed by the Rich, just being screwed more discreetly than the Poor. i doubt it, though.
Thatcher, Reagan and the whole Culture War/Class War on the “poor/little people” is not limited just to the Blacks but also includes the Browns, Gays, Hippies, Immigrants, Uppity Women, etc. The Middle Class is in that rifle’s scope as well.
when anyone (like Caribou Barbie) says,”Relock and reload!! we, the Middle Class, are the prey. We are in the sights, too. Not just the poor. Poor people are expendable. God made so many of them, i’ve always heard. the Rich use the Poor to “get” the Middle Class. Here in America, the Rich/Republicans succeeded in getting the Middle Class by using a Culture War. and the Republicans, with Obama’s help, will finish us off if the Middle Class continues buying their crap. it may be too late, though. Obama is the perfect “Plantation” Overseer to finish off our country.
the Plantation “Overseer, a black man running over all the “slaves” under his Masters’ control. a Southern term. how appropriate. the Civil War was never over , anyway.
substitue Wall St. for the Plantation and it all fits so well.
either we fight back or we wind up like all those 3rd world Carribean Islands where capitalism has left its’ trademark of poor masses with no resources other than Tourism. the Capitalists of yesterday took all the “goodies” and left a destroyed and vandalized 3rd world economy.
just look at history of these Tropical Islands/Banana Republics. the Capitalist came and took as much as they could and then left the scene of devastation and poverty for the “poor” to fight amongst themselves for what little remains, while the Rich move on to “greener” pastures to loot.
Americans are way too proud to learn anything outside of the American Dream/Experience. i expect America will have to fall into the abyss of extreme disunity before beginning to wake up to the facts that others can clearly see. Waking up to reality is not an American “trait.”
Americans really are “Exceptional” as the Republicans have shown. Exceptionally easy and stupid.
ks
“And besides, Arthur chastises himself with his own comment. If that’s his logic, he’s as irrelevant as the rest of us who have our opinions….. “
Actually he said as much in the comment you are talking about. That was his whole point. The opinion of anybody, including him, sitting from a distance condoning or not the violence is irrelevant.
Diana Prince
Morocco Bama PERMALINK
“it’s “yeah bitch, you think you can fuck with us…well, watch this, I’ll show you how to fuck with us…..take that….we’re better at it than youse blokes, fucking with us I mean, any day.”
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I highly doubt people were rioting to prove they are better at violence or superior in some way. Again, I think riots are not pre-meditated or “rational” – rather a spontaneous outburst fueled by rage at perceived socio-economic injustice. Does that mean I condone violence? – no, of course not. At the end of the day, it’s just tragic – for everyone – but that doesn’t mean that I don’t understand why it happens.
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Morocco Bama PERMALINK
“I addressed Petro’s quote of Arthur. No, I didn’t read the whole article, just what Petro posted.”
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How can you possible make this argument –
“It begins with me,,,,,and according to Arthur’s arrogance, he would have it end with me as he cheers on the rape of my wife and daughter and a brick to the head of my son for no other reason than just “Being There.”’
when you didn’t even bother to read what he wrote?
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Morocco Bama PERMALINK
“And, I will add, Arthur slams Bageant with that comment, as he makes it from the safety and security of his humble abode.”
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If you knew anything about Arthur Silber, then you would not describe his current situation as either safe or secure.
Petro
It saddens me a bit to see such sincere and intelligent folk locking horns in this way. I know that all of us here abhor violence, and I think we are descending into the minutia of syntax.
This is understandable, because what is happening in GB right now would of course knock any sane person off of his/her horse. These events are incredibly difficult to countenance with any equilibrium.
We all love each other, right?
Petro
Jeebus, my last comment sounds incredibly patronizing. My apologies.
jcapan
Petro, I think it’s rather fitting–you’re clearly channeling your inner Rodney King.
Morocco Bama
Actually he said as much in the comment you are talking about. That was his whole point. The opinion of anybody, including him, sitting from a distance condoning or not the violence is irrelevant.
Then, by necessity, him claiming our commentary is irrelevant makes his claim irrelevancy, irrelevant…so why even bother, if he believes it so firmly? I’ll render a guess absent a further elaboration from him, and that is he wishes to end discussion. It’s a roundabout way of censoring….and very “Rightish” of him in his tactics. The French would be furious with him. No, every last drop of insight, accurate or not, but let each of us be our own judge, must be wrought from all of this…..or else, as the saying goes, history will keep repeating itself. It’s not enough to just stand by and witness history. You must absorb it and learn from it, and in order to do that, you need to express your thoughts and feelings about the complex set of events, and allow others to do so, as well.
Morocco Bama
This started as a reaction to a suspicious police shooting and blew up from there.
No, it started as a legitimate, organized protest. And unlike you, I’m not foolish enough to treat the group that is vandalizing and looting…burning and destroying their own turf, as the entirety of the community. Obviously, an Egregore of aimless, misdirected violence has been conjured, wittingly, or unwittingly, but at this point it is just random violence for violence’s sake, and it doesn’t need to be fed, because it’s self-destructive. Don’t give power to it by telling other people to refrain from talking it down.
Petro
OK, that was funny.
Morocco Bama
Lisa, thanks for providing the mainstream framing. Clearly it was just groups of thugs and white hipsters looking to cause trouble. Nothing to see here. Let’s move along. I wouldn’t want to be accused of cheering anything on. But really I love the framing. It’s expert propaganda:
That’s a fair point. I’ll go a step further and say it was very subtle advertising for Allstate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JM-MkY4sNho&feature=relmfu
ks
“No, it started as a legitimate, organized protest. And unlike you, I’m not foolish enough to treat the group that is vandalizing and looting…burning and destroying their own turf, as the entirety of the community. Obviously, an Egregore of aimless, misdirected violence has been conjured, wittingly, or unwittingly, but at this point it is just random violence for violence’s sake, and it doesn’t need to be fed, because it’s self-destructive. Don’t give power to it by telling other people to refrain from talking it down.”
A legitimate organized protest….to, as I said, …a suspicious police shooting. Also, what are you talking about? Who is treating the people you describe as “the entirety of the community”? I just said upthread that there were opportunists and hustlers taking advantage of the situation which is not surprising. Why must you make things up? I’m not “giving anything power”, whatever that means, nor am I telling anybody to “refrain from talking it down”. Whatever we say here will have no effect on what happens there but I guess we can flatter ourselves and think it does.
Morocco Bama
Whatever we say here will have no effect on what happens there but I guess we can flatter ourselves and think it does.
Sounds like you’re the one making things up. This is a prime example. If you think that whatever is said here has no effect, then why are you here, and why are you even bothering to argue with me…unless, of course, you like mayhem, and you just like to argue? That’s cool, if that’s your thing, but at least admit it, because otherwise you’re betraying your own words by your very actions.
At this point, I don’t suspect you will understand what I mean if I explained the effect, or even if you did, you would merely dismiss it and marginalize it because you feel compelled to be contrary for the hell of it. That’s not constructive, and I won’t feed it. Some, a select few I presume, will get my drift, and that’s good enough for me.
ks
“Then, by necessity, him claiming our commentary is irrelevant makes his claim irrelevancy, irrelevant…so why even bother, if he believes it so firmly? I’ll render a guess absent a further elaboration from him, and that is he wishes to end discussion. It’s a roundabout way of censoring….and very “Rightish” of him in his tactics. The French would be furious with him. No, every last drop of insight, accurate or not, but let each of us be our own judge, must be wrought from all of this…..or else, as the saying goes, history will keep repeating itself. It’s not enough to just stand by and witness history. You must absorb it and learn from it, and in order to do that, you need to express your thoughts and feelings about the complex set of events, and allow others to do so, as well.”
C’mon man, what are you on about? How are you or anybody else being being censored? You are typing away at will. It might be helpful if you read the article before you further elaborate again. At least that way you’ll actually know what you are elaborating on. If you do read it, you should clearly see that your stance on it doesn’t make any sense.
ks
Ian, please delete the previous post. This one is correctly formatted. Thanks.
MB – “Then, by necessity, him claiming our commentary is irrelevant makes his claim irrelevancy, irrelevant…so why even bother, if he believes it so firmly? I’ll render a guess absent a further elaboration from him, and that is he wishes to end discussion. It’s a roundabout way of censoring….and very “Rightish” of him in his tactics. The French would be furious with him. No, every last drop of insight, accurate or not, but let each of us be our own judge, must be wrought from all of this…..or else, as the saying goes, history will keep repeating itself. It’s not enough to just stand by and witness history. You must absorb it and learn from it, and in order to do that, you need to express your thoughts and feelings about the complex set of events, and allow others to do so, as well.”
C’mon man, what are you on about? How are you or anybody else being being censored? You are typing away at will. It might be helpful if you read the article before you further elaborate again. At least that way you’ll actually know what you are elaborating on. If you do read it, you should clearly see that your stance on it doesn’t make any sense.
ks
‘Sounds like you’re the one making things up. This is a prime example. If you think that whatever is said here has no effect, then why are you here, and why are you even bothering to argue with me…unless, of course, you like mayhem, and you just like to argue? That’s cool, if that’s your thing, but at least admit it, because otherwise you’re betraying your own words by your very actions.
At this point, I don’t suspect you will understand what I mean if I explained the effect, or even if you did, you would merely dismiss it and marginalize it because you feel compelled to be contrary for the hell of it. That’s not constructive, and I won’t feed it. Some, a select few I presume, will get my drift, and that’s good enough for me.”
What? I have a healthy ego but for me to think that my comments and bantering with you here have ANY effect on the situation in London would be delusional. I’m here because I enjoy reading Ian’s posts and commenting on them occasionally. Do I need another reason? Um, no. Also, for YOU of all people to suggest that somebody is being contrary for the hell of it is just rich. That’s pretty much your entire shtick here.
Diana Prince
Morocco Bama
“Then, by necessity, him claiming our commentary is irrelevant makes his claim irrelevancy, irrelevant…so why even bother, if he believes it so firmly? I’ll render a guess absent a further elaboration from him, and that is he wishes to end discussion. It’s a roundabout way of censoring….and very “Rightish” of him in his tactics.”
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Have you read Arthur Silber’s post? To suggest that the purpose of it was a “Rightish” (?) attempt to shut down discussion is absurd.
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Arthur Silber
“It is a very different matter to ascribe specifically moral meaning to large-scale cultural events as events in themselves, past or present. Yet many commentators ask us to believe that we (or, at least, the commentators in question) find ourselves standing on a different, separate plane of existence, dispassionately offering judgment on the moral qualities of events that pass before us for review. This is moral narcissism parading as sober historical analysis.”