If Non Sanders Democratic Nominees Can’t Convince Voters To Vote For Them Isn’t That Bad?

There is something going on in the Democratic Party: call it a split or a realignment, but the details matter.

At the top, among politicians and operatives, it is simply the resistance of a business model against displacement or discredit: big donors are solicited in exchange for policy inaction or bipartisan accomodation, the money is spent with operatives on media to manipulate voters, the idiot voters are manipulated with focus-grouped rhetoric and stupid arguments and narratives, all legitimated by media pundits mouthing talking points, rinse and repeat.

Only very narrowly in the transaction between politicians and the donor class, mediated by lobbyists, is their any responsibility for policy consequences. At the interface with the voters, policy and its consequences (and especially policy motivations) are obscured. The voters are encouraged and trained to be idiots, to vote at random in tribal reaction, to not vote at all, to believe wildly implausible narratives about who the politicians are and what they are about.

I watched Sanders on his Fox town hall and i thought he was pretty good at parrying some of the stupid arguments thrust his way to confuse idiot voters. Things like (despite the quotes i am paraphrasing from memory) “hey, you are a millionaire, if you favor higher tax rates on rich folks like yourself, shouldn’t you voluntarily pay those rates yourself now”. He did his best on the consequences of Medicare-for-All.

But, i am not optimistic. The system he is up against is nothing if not robust. It put over the Russia, Russia, Russia narrative for over two years. And, for all of the talk of Sanders building a political machine based on small donor contributions and able to mobilize voters i do not see much. He is old and he is alone. He is still defensively saying things like that he expects the DNC to be fair that show he is not unconstrained in his messaging. He did not acknowledge that Clintonistas opposed to him and his policy agenda dominate the Party and the elected ranks.

The complicity of voters in American idiocracy is an obstacle, but that complicity just reflects the absence of genuine bottom-up political organization alongside the surfeit of corporate media and their corrupt or moronic talking heads, gaslighting for a living.

While noting that Bernie folded like a cheap suit in 2016 and as a result, he has no credibility in 2020 with me. Additionally, my experience in life, watching free-riders convince otherwise good people to do likewise has convinced me that nothing of value should be free. Medicare buy-in at 50*-yo fine, lower cost education, yeah sure, the prices are ridiculously high, lower rates on student loans, fair enough…but free no…no..no. A restaurant who leaves free mints out will always attract the fat a-hole who will pocket a couple dozen and think themselves clever.

Anyhow, I am one of those who voted Trump…who would have voted for Bernie over Trump…alongside dozens of people I know.

Why? Again, as told all the Democratic apparatchiks I know, run that [obscenity deleted] war criminal and I will vote for whomever is most likely to defeat her. Hence my vote for Trump…which was really a vote against Hillary, an action that describes nearly all the Trump voters I know.

Not Russians, not racism, not misogyny…just a determination not to have the DNC shove another pile of $#!t down my throat! And if the DNCer’s insist on running a Hillary acolyte, like Kamala, I’ll do it again. And again and again…until it’s clear, the [D]’s either return to FDRism or they can go eff themselves. I vote strategically, I long ago abandoned the “lessor of two evils” that has result in an endless line of crap sandwiches to choose from. I am tired of From’s single entree menu of neoliberal/neocolonial candidates.

*That’s when Health Insurance skyrockets hyperbolically

S Brennan – Looking at the evidence I would say your strategic voting is working. When I think of the rut we would be in if Hillary had won, it looks like giving the status quo a good hard kick in the pants has worked. Not that we know yet how this will all pan out, but there is more ideological fresh air blowing through the halls of power than I have seen in decades.

SOP; “Not that we know yet how this will all pan out” agree…so far no new wars but, we are not out of the woods.

The Democrats blood lust knows no bounds, Trump may foolishly be convinced to attempt sating the baying werewolves of DC with another senseless war.

I never really feared Trump, his instincts are not as demonic as his enemies pretend. Indeed, many of Trumps views, prior to his being gas-lit by the deep state, were, mainstream just 25 years ago.

Indeed, the hierarchy of the Democratic party has worked hand in glove with the Koch Bros to ensure that Trump ONLY gets advice from the worst aspects of the deep state. Thanks to the [D]’s banshee-screams that “Trump is the root of all evil” we now have a Pence Presidency with his own cabinet of Pompeo, Bolton and the she-devil herself, Gina Haspel. Democrats efforts in elevating evil have been herculean. Thanks to [D]’s tireless efforts and in spite of “Che’s” tireless special pleadings to the contrary, Trump is only the titular head of state, only fools and con men say otherwise.

Democrats fell all over themselves to help the deep state in blinding Trump by removing his one eye, Gen. Michael Flynn…a man who opposed/exposed Obama/Brennan’s arming of ISIS and other US sponsored terrorist groups in Syria/ME. Democrats were wetting their pants when Gen. Michael Flynn was replaced with Pompeo…lest the [D]’s efforts to one-up the war crimes of Bush be undone.

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On Sanders’ reliability: if he were a hard-line, never-fold, never-compromise democratic socialist, he would simply have been an isolated crank throughout his political life in the Reagan years. Instead, he fought in the system, developing as a politician who could make alliances and motivate allies. This is an interesting description from 2005.

As I interpret what has happened, he made a deal with the Democratic Party (a private organization which should not, but does, have ballot control) to run on the Democratic Party ticket. The DNC saw it as sheepdogging the left back into the fold. Sanders saw it as an opportunity to move the platform somewhat to the left and giving public voice to policies that had been suppressed. The “centrist” Democrats were horrified when his campaign resonated. He kept his bargain to support the eventual nominee. It’s a matter of interpretation whether this was honorable or opportunistic.

This time he’s not bound by a promise and is fighting for the actual nomination. I don’t think the “centrist” Democratic leaders will allow him to get it. I would guess that the party will split. The dream scenario is that he will win. I think he can actually accomplish a fair amount, despite our concern with the “deep state”. Most federal employees want to do a good job and would welcome a chance to do it — the demonization of government workers is a neoliberal propaganda point. When there appears a viable opponent to a corrupt, moribund organization, idealists flock to be a part (1932, the 60s).

If you want to know how out of touch the Democratic leadership is, you should listen to Nancy Pelosi’s recent dissing of AOC on 60 Minutes. It is reminiscent of what she had to say about anti-Iraq War protesters back in 2007: “They are advocates. We are leaders.” That was 12 years ago and she hasn’t learned a damn thing in the interim. Rather than embrace a new generation of Democrats, she is fighting a rearguard action against them. In the interview, this involved a weirdly inverted argument. She, Nancy Pelosi, wanted to feed undernourished children in the US, and these New Democrats needed to get onboard with her so she could do this. Of course, Pelosi has no legislation on the table on this subject, and these New Democrats would precisely be the ones interested in this issue, while Pelosi would only be interested in helping these children if they also happened to be Wall Street brokers.

Members of our Establishment, like Pelosi, are feeling pretty good at the moment. They figure there is no alternative to them, that anybody but Trump is enough to run on. What they conveniently forget is that they are why so many people voted for Trump. Or that this is Trump’s only real chance of getting re-elected. Despite all the evidence to the contrary, they still can not conceive that progressives like Sanders can reach groups that won’t vote for them among independents, millennials, and Trump voters.

So far, the only two candidates I might vote for are Sanders and Warren.

Hugh

Of course, Pelosi has no legislation on the table on this subject, and these New Democrats would precisely be the ones interested in this issue, while Pelosi would only be interested in helping these children if they also happened to be Wall Street brokers.

Now Hugh, that’s not quite fair. I’m sure Pelosi would be happy to help those children, doubtless with a program for them to get government-guaranteed *loans* from Chase Morgan for food.

(Seriously, a la Thomas Frank, HRC did once attend a Wall Street-funded seminar on poverty in the US, where the ‘solution’ to poverty being proposed was just that!)

The NY Times is still all in. Their Editorial Board Op-Ed today is titled “The Great Russian Heist of 2016”.

Z

S Brennan:

“Medicare buy-in at 50*-yo fine,”

If you must do a buy-in rather than just letting everyone have the health care they need, the way to do it would be to start with the youngest ages, say 18-30, so that there would be continuing support for raising the age limit until everyone could buy in. The last thing America needs is an even bigger cohort of “I’ve got mine, fuck you” oldsters.

Brennan,

“Additionally, my experience in life, watching free-riders convince otherwise good people to do likewise has convinced me that nothing of value should be free.”

How much do you think the average adult should pay for oxygen?

“Medicare buy-in at 50*-yo fine, lower cost education, yeah sure, the prices are ridiculously high, lower rates on student loans, fair enough…but free no…no..no. A restaurant who leaves free mints out will always attract the fat a-hole who will pocket a couple dozen and think themselves clever.”

Do you truly believe comparing some “fat a-hole” swiping a couple dozen extra mints at a restaurant is a reasonable comparison with someone utilizing affordable, accessible health care? For example, do you think that anyone is apt to demand a couple dozen extra x-rays of their chest for kicks if healthcare was “free”?

Z

Actually, there is a black woman in the photo out of the 40 or so recognizable faces in the background.

Z

An inability to pay for employee health care is pushing employers towards outsourcing, low cost immigrant labor, and black market business dealings (zero tax revenue). The only way to get health care to be “free”, which would give small businesses more of a chance to compete, is to bust up the big pharma medical insurance lobby cabals, and to make the rich pay for it.

But the powerful rich enjoy being powerful rich, hating taxation regulation as much as they do the competition from nimble little upstart companies.

According to a report from the Economic Policy Institute, the average CEO pay is 271 times that of the average worker. Has anybody ever had an actual sit down with one of their kind – mano-a-mano – to find out for themselves what their real worth really is?

Medicare for All is not free. Instead of premiums, copays, and deductibles, costs are switched to being paid for through taxes.

The same is true of education. K-12 is paid for through taxes. So why not undergrad and beyond? Education is essential to having a well informed citizenry, sustaining our society, and improving our quality of life.

Z, the NYT never misses an opportunity to stick a shiv into Bernie Sanders.

NR, to your:

“If you must do a buy-in rather than just letting everyone have the health care they need, the way to do it would be to start with the youngest ages, say 18-30, so that there would be continuing support for raising the age limit until everyone could buy in. The last thing America needs is an even bigger cohort of “I’ve got mine, fuck you” oldsters.”

I am arguing for dropping the age to 50 because:

1] As you will learn one day, you have to pay ~$900-$1200/month [Obamacare tax valuations] post 50yo, as opposed to, ~$175-250/mo [Obamacare tax valuations]. That is quite a difference and for the bottom 4 quintiles wage after fifty has been declining most of this millennium.

2] “Less than half of all eligible employees under age 26 enrolled in an employer-provided health plan in 2015” because…wait for it, their invincible; they can ride on their parent’s insurance; they have better things to do?

3] Allowing the over 50 cohort to buy into Medicare is smaller pill to swallow. If your favored cohort won’t buy into their employers insurance what makes you think they flock to purchase Medicare?

Reality is, most what you ask for is already in place, most of the 18-30 cohort do not want/need what you propose. And actually, if you are not making money, Obamacare’s Medicaid option is available. Medicaid is much, Much, MUCH better coverage than the overpriced catastrophic insurance I have. Much Better. In fact, depending on how I structure my income I may qualify for Medicaid and I’d take it in a heartbeat like millions upon millions of young “I’ve got mine, [obscenity deleted]” Americans do now.

Finally, I am well past fifty and I am arguing for expanding coverage for people I do not even know…so your insipid “hate everyone over 30” divide & conquer rhetoric is bs…just as it was when I listened to it as a child coming from wealthy “hippies” back in 1968.

Z to;

“nothing of value should be free…How much do you think the average adult should pay for oxygen?”

That would depend, the 20.95% in the atmosphere or the stuff that get’s delivered to the door in a bottle? The former is already free and has been before the time of humans, somebody would have to privatize [steal it] to sell it.

And Z to;

“Do you truly believe comparing some “fat a-hole” swiping a couple dozen extra mints at a restaurant is a reasonable comparison with someone utilizing affordable, accessible health care?”

That would depend, a more reasonable comparison would be frat boys drinking their way through college on their parents family connections and largess.

Now, if you haven’t seen people abusing the medical system the way frat boy abuse college you live in a bubble…Medicaid fraud/abuse has a long history, I am not advocating eliminating it but I am saying your idea that it hasn’t been abused by a-holes is wishful/lazy thinking.

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019/04/22/guantanamos-darkest-secret

Just when we think we know all the horrors from this pseudo-death camp, more crop up.

And we wonder why the US is hated.

Bernie at one end of the age spectrum, AOC at the other. That’s what’s called a deep bench. And as for those who don’t get the natural monopoly aspect of medical care and are terrified that somebody might get something for free or even worse “undeserving”….well, to paraphrase Max Planck, progress is made one funeral at a time.

In Canada, same deal:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2370083/

@S Brennan — Just because you feel shitty doesn’t mean you need the services of a doctor.

I guess you need diagnostic knowledge that doctors claim they learned in medical school. When I was a child, you could call the doctor if you were worried. My parents called my pediatrician on Saturday night, he told them to bring me to his office, and from there I was taken to the hospital and operated on for appendicitis that evening. These days, if you call the doctor’s office, the answering machine tells you to hang up and call 911 if it’s an emergency. But that Saturday night, I just felt shitty. My parents did not have to wait till Monday morning to find out if there was a problem that needed attention, by which time I would have had a burst appendix according to the doctor.

Since then I’ve taken two people to hospital emergency rooms. It wasn’t fun. Long wait, nothing wrong that couldn’t wait until the physician’s office reopened. But we went the to emergency room because we didn’t know whether it was serious or not. Hell, I’d call the vet for my dog if I was as worried as I was both those times.

And then there was the friend’s father who fell at home on a Friday night. They knew his doctor well enough to call him at his home. He instructed them to call an ambulance and go to the emergency room. At the hospital, they waited for six hours and at two a.m. were told that only crises would be seen later that night. They instructed my friend to have the ambulance take her father back home and bring him back to the emergency room Saturday morning at eight.

I don’t understand the way the health care system is supposed to work. I avoid contact with medical businesses as much as possible, but sometimes you feel so shitty that I guess you just get scared. The plan to charge lots of money in fines if you guess wrong just adds another level of misery to what is already a miserable system.

If illness would just manifest in physicians’ office hours at a time when they aren’t overbooked and do so in a way that allows you to judge how serious it is, things would be fine. It has not been my experience that it does so. Therefore, health care delivery should be organized to provide health care, not to engage in predation.

nihil obstet

I belong to a well-run HMO that has a system for 24 hr urgent and emergency care. None of it is entirely free at the point of service. They do not charge much, though i know the amounts would be problematic for some people. Charging even a nominal amount solves a problem and creates a problem. Stubbornly denying that there could be problem is an ideological marker.

“make sure everybody has ‘skin in the game” is how we got Obamacare” ha..ha..ha..

What a silly lie, we got Obamacare because his big donors wanted to preserve the system and Obama supporters [then & now] were/are infatuated with the image he projected.

“make sure everybody has ‘skin in the game” is how we got Obamacare” is one of the silliest lies ever told on this board.

2016 all over again. If the Dems allow Sanders to run, he will win. If they don’t the party will lose while the leadership and big donors will win. The progressives need to make life uncomfortable for the DNC or nothing will change. They should be working against the deep state, there will never be a better time. We have proof that the UK interfered in the 2016 election and the DNC helped finance it. It wasn’t just sanders that was sabotaged. If they don’t start refuting russiagate they are going to go down with the ship though.

@ponderer,

I agree with your assessment and I share your hope. I think the chances are slim that any progressive will support the pursuit of the Deep Cabal behind RussiagateGate. The last few decades of mass brain-soakage/ marination in the poisoned pot of Social Justice Warrior ethno-gender-racial Identy Group Victimism have left the progressives unable to break free from their COW ( Coalition Of Wokeness) programming.

Some few are trying. There have long been Russiagate-skeptical reality-check posts and comments over at Naked Capitalism. And of course Sic Semper Tyrannis has been running such posts and comments for a while now.

If a Mainstream Catfood Democrat truly wins the nomination in a totally fair and square manner, then those people who would have preferred one of the Decent Three + Gravel will have to ruminate over their disappointment and loss . . . and decide what to do. If any one of the Decent Three or Gravel are obviously cheated/swindled/ muscled out of the DemParty nomination, then some number of millions of “Decent Three + Gravel” supporters will be very bitter. We may well get PUMA on the Catfood Democrats’ ass.

DC,

Thanks for that. If nihil obstet is being genuine, he is not an evil person…just somebody with enough self-confidence to be used as a tool by people he claims to despise.

DC, I agree with your point, I used to say the same thing to Mark of Ireland when he use to comment here:

Stunned customer; PROPAGANDA!

Madge You’re soaking in it it

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