At the DNC:
“Israel always has the right to defend itself, and as president I will ensure that it has the means to defend itself against the horrors of attacks like October 7th which included unspeakable sexual violence.”
Lying and clear support of a genocide.
Harris is better domestically, but she’s toed the line on Israel.
Oh, and AOC has clearly chosen ambition over principle. She’s refused to call Gaza a genocide, and she was allowed to speak at the DNC. It was explained to her, forcibly, I expect, the limits of how far having principles would get her and she’s made her choice and been rewarded for it.
Neither of these women have any real principles. If you’re willing to skate on genocide, you’ll skate on anything if you feel the need. Don’t think they wouldn’t do the same thing to Americans if it came to it.
Anon
There is some logic to everyone in the West skating on some genocide or the other, innit? We’re kicking and screaming, mostly just screaming, and we’re still getting dragged. The change the world claims to want will only come from exhausting the status quo, but you won’t do that from within Western governments, and you won’t do that by playing nicer than them, and you can’t do it without destroying yourself one way or the other. If you finally identify the farce that always was liberalism, just a mass coping mechanism, you must identify the farce (or convenience) in its progeny: inalienable rights… and it’s a slippery slope from there. All that’s left is materialism and entropy. You can either be part of it like AOC, and embrace some facsimile of life, roasted by conscience and certainly going to hell, or you can live your days harangued and horrified, tortured by your impotence on one hand, and society on the other.
Tc
I wouldnt call actual liberalism a mass coping mechanism, but definitely most self proclaimed liberals have retreated to a fantasy world of a brighter future based on never addressing the evils of the status quo as much as conservative want to return to a past that never was.
What no one will address is that just like Hitlers Germany, Israel will continue to kill en masse until they are stopped. That means Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon, Israeli gentiles and more.. Stopping evil does not get easier the longer we wait. The dems need to be willing walk away from the Jewish vote because when it comes down to it, deep down most American Jews can live however reluctantly with genocide of arab gentiles if it means the survival of the Jewish state. Israel has chosen to go for all or nothing and the dems and american jewry are down with that as long as they can pretend to be dragged along passively. And down the line they will probably drop the pretense rather than stop Israel.
Mary Bennet
Should Harris become the president, the guy with whom she will have to work if she hopes to get anything she wants through congress is Zionist Chuck Schumer. Last election cycle he was able to maneuver to get the two persons who might have been able to mount an effective primary challenge out of his way. Then Representative Anthony Delgado was appointed lieutenant governor; he may well be NY State’s next governor and could conceivably become president himself. Meanwhile, the ginned up Force the Vote over the then unpassable medicare for all was a warning to AOC. She tried to tell clueless activists that the votes for it weren’t there, but the bought and paid for lefty shock jock from Pasadena–a whole CONTINENT away from AOC’s district in NYC–wasn’t about to listen. Shock jock, his name escapes me, was at that time represented by, guess who, next CA senator Adam Schiff, that’s who. Also a Zionist, one might add. One would think he might have “called out” Schiff, his own representative at the time.
Representative Ocassio-Cortez was not elected to be standard bearer for The Left. She was elected to represent her district, which by all accounts, I have relatives who live in her district, she does.
I don’t like Zionist influence in our public life either, but it has been allowed to happen, and our governing class is not suddenly going to turn against Israel. What I think is now possible is that Israel and its’ American supporters will have to be paying for what they get from us. I rather think that something like that is what Netanyahu was told by Harris in the private meeting in July.
Nate Wilcox
“Don’t think they wouldn’t do the same thing to Americans if it came to it.”
You nailed it. Sent a cold chill down my spine.
Willy
I don’t like the very-ambitious because they’re so much harder to read than regular folks. They’ll say anything. Doesn’t mean they’re all callous and bad, but one still must compare previous promises with actual actions with all contexts considered. While Trump and Biden have well-proven themselves with their actions while in power, Kamala is less proven than them both.
The least amount of D convention crowd interest happened during the foreign policy parts. This tells me that the “genocide” line needs better optics. Otherwise too many rationalize that it’s all ‘fog of war’ stuff. The best I’ve been able to do for the poorly informed is offer videos from holocaust scholars and mercenaries bragging about taking pot shots at children. I’m hoping that just because many seem to need Life Magazine-style photos of obvious exterminations like at Auschwitz, doesn’t mean that other graphic proofs won’t be effective.
As for liberals, I’d prefer to assume the above. They need to be better informed, not better moralized. Texts made the rounds in the reactionary echochamber which described far lefties (Bolsheviks) as using liberals to gain political power, then genociding them afterwards to eliminate any challenges to their new power. Don’t want to appear that way here. Liberals may simply be poorly informed and shaming wont work.
Feral Finster
Cue up the chorus of Team D nuthangers making excuse after excuse.
Were Trump to be elected president, Team D and their MSM courtiers would suddenly and passionately rediscover human rights, only to lose that newly rekindled passion, the moment Team D again occupies the Oval Office.
Were Harris to be elected president, I suppose the upside is that she could abandon one or more stupid wars without the MSM getting the vapors and howling something about a “Putin puppet”.
Feral Finster
@Anon:
Once you understand that we are ruled by high-functioning (in the sense that most can fake empathy when called upon) sociopaths, everything they do makes sense.
To use my favorite analogy, the armed robber already knows that “Thou Shalt Not Steal!” and he does not care. Hold a loaded Colt Python to his head with the sure knowledge that you will without hesitation pull that trigger on that big motherfucker magnum, and he will be the one on his knees, tearfully quoting Holy Scripture to you.
And he will not care a whit whether or not you are legally entitled to spatter his brains on the wall.
Jan Wiklund
As fa as I know the International Court has declared the Israeli occupation illegal, both in principle and as it is executed.
Which means that by international law Israel has no right to defend itself against Palestinians.
But, of course, the US doesn’t recognize the International Court, like it doesn’t recognize any international rule or law it pays for them to break. It’s a rogue state. Conservative, or liberal.
Geoff Dewan
I call what’s going on in Gaza genocide.
I also think of history. I put myself in Europe of the first part of the Twentieth Century. Maybe, even worse, a German in the Thirties. Or worse than that, a German Jew in the 1930’s.
So say my family has been German for hundreds of years. I speak German. My children speak German. My father is a decorated veteran of the First World War. The terms of each person’s contract with the state has been fulfilled, in many cases with our own blood. I am a citizen in the deepest most originalist terms. I have subsumed my personal sovereignty in the greater sovereignty of my country. Now my Fatherland. A sacred contract. In return, that larger sovereign state has pledged, with it’s very existence, my security, my family’s security. One for all and all for one.
Then things start to take a turn in the late Twenties. Over there on the fringes things are being said outloud but in obscure corners; obscure enough to be dismissed for now. There is a tone of grievance and a promises of retribution, but just murmurs. And they keep getting a little bit louder and a little more distinct. Slowly there are men marching in streets. The members of a small sedition in a beer hall somewhere are now being hailed as “heroes” by their leader and the men become more numerous and they start to have uniforms and the leader gets enough of a vote from the minority to use the rules and norms, carefully constructed over the years, to gain even more power.
Then, in a matter of months, the State is becoming an instrument for repression. That sacred contract has become just another instrument to be used against itself and those who thought, up until that time, that it would protect them, find that it has become their enemy. Their existential enemy- in the most concrete sense of the word.
When the trains finally stop running and the smokestacks stop emitting their human smoke the few survivors wake up and realize that they have put their faith and their lives in a treacherous machine that has gassed and burned and destroyed everything and everyone of any personal value. Never again they say. Never again will I, we, put our faith and lives in the hands of those who hate us and want us dead. We will make our own state and we will kill anyone who ever makes even the slightest move to come for us or our families. And the State of Israel was born.
When I look at it from that perspective I get a glimmer of the kind of sickness that has been implanted in the souls of those who survived.
In the world of states it turns out to be kill or be killed. Survival first. Trust no one. And why should they? When you’ve been betrayed by what is supposed to be the ultimate repository of centuries of cultural values there’s not much trust left anymore. It’s all, fuck around, find out. The abused have become the abuser.
“So those who are not us and don’t know what it has felt like to be betrayed in that way say who cares what others say?” This time we live and fuck the rest of you and, at the moment, that’s become Bibi Netanyahu incarnate. And so far no one has had the political imagination or moral stature to resist him.
I pray for that person but I know I’m not him. All I can hope is if and when my moment to act in some deeper or more consequential way comes, in whatever way it’s deemed, I am able. Perhaps that’s where everybody is at right now. Why so often it feels that the world is holding its collective breath.
So I don’t blame as much as mourn. At the moment.
That’s where we are as far as I can tell. I have neither the political imagination or moral standing to create a new world out of this millenia’s old conflict. We seem to be on a river that is flowing to only God knows where and with a resistless force. It’s kill or be killed now and the abused has become the abuser. It’s as old as the Bible whence it pretends to have originated but I suspect it goes back a good bit further. So, while I am repelled, I find it difficult to sit in easy judgement. I am deeply uncomfortable.
I should be. We all should be. At least I can acknowledge that.
Dan
It was clear several years ago that AOC was following the Nancy Pelosi career trajectory (read: elected as a radical outsider reformer, evolve into Ms. Establishment).
Willy
Were Trump to be elected…
Were Harris to be elected…
Do you have a viable alternative, or is it all just whining?
responseTwo
“Harris is better domestically, but she’s toed the line on Israel.” – Oh come on, you can’t be serious. She’s a hard-core capitalist that works for Wall Street, Pentagon, and the DNC billionaires. She will blab on and on about helping society while in the end she will stab her own society in the back. Just like Obama. US health care won’t change, student debt will continue the same as it is now, and she sure as hell won’t “rollback the Trump tax cuts like Biden said he would do. She will bullsh*t her way through each day.
mago
To the ten or so comments posted as of this writing, I mostly concur, although there’s a whiff of nihilism to anon’s observations—it’s a western world malady.
The political and personal trajectory of both Kamala bala get down on your knees and pray to Willie and of AOC’s perfidious pandering have been well remarked upon here and elsewhere.
I’ll mention once again my dismay at otherwise intelligent friends in my circle who are Kamala cheerleaders. You go girl! They all suffer fromTDS.
I’m mute around the lib’s delusions. Attempting to influence, persuade and educate is futile. Why bother?
Yes brothers and sisters, it’s the same old same old. Roll out the tumbrils and make a new order. Not happening in the political realm. Maybe in the personal there’s a prayer of hope and transformation, but that’s up to you (and me, too).
Have a restful weekend, if you enjoy that luxury. Every day’s a death day in some parts.
Willy
Without a plan it’s all just whining.
Kamala, whether she’s trending leftwards or really is full of corporate bullshit, is showing how it’s done. The majority of people tire of fear and demand some hope. Human nature. It’s painfully easy to see how the leftists around here fail time and time again, while those in so many other places are at least giving workers respites of hope, ideas for plans, and even moving the Overton window of possibility leftward. It might often end up being false hope, but endless whining without a plan never goes anywhere.
Ian Welsh
Ah yes, pointing out who’s creating a genocide is just “whining.”
Willy
For years my opinions about anything whether I agree, quibble, or disagree, were just opinions. I was just another commenter in a sea of varying commentary.
Then as soon as I suggest two practical anti-genocide strategies we might implement:
* Derail AIPAC (or any other related or future bribery outfit) by any means possible. Get the word out that they’ve become a proxy for right wing machinations. Get as many people as possible to think about why the USA is being led to increasingly support increasingly horrific Israeli policies.
* Find and repost videos of actual Gazan genocide and make them go viral.
I start getting called disparaging names which have nothing to do with me or my beliefs. Is this place even for real, anymore?
Ian Welsh
And here is a post which discusses AIPAC’s influence. July 24th of this year.
https://www.ianwelsh.net/how-much-does-genocide-in-gaza-effect-the-us-presidential-election/
Here is one from August 7th.
https://www.ianwelsh.net/tim-walz-is-excellent-domestically-pro-genocide/
Here is one saying that the entire government of the US has been captured by Israel:
https://www.ianwelsh.net/quick-takes-hamas-china-semis-and-more/
And older piece on how AOC was broken by the Israeli lobby:
https://www.ianwelsh.net/when-are-you-guilty-for-the-crimes-of-your-group/
The Weekend Wrap-ups also cover AIPAC frequently.
Anon
“Don’t think they wouldn’t do the same to Americans…”
The source of mine and AOC’s “nihilism”, though hers must be far more advanced, is that people don’t see it is already so, just alchemized to the tune of liberal swan songs. Like money is to value, they abstract doom with economics. Is it siege, or ‘sanctions’? Is it progress, or ‘profit’? Are you human, or ‘trans’? May you live in interesting times…
Anon
@Willy: “Liberals may simply be poorly informed…”
Now picture yourself explaining this to a pregnant woman in Gaza, or perhaps, a retiree in Flint, Michigan. At some point (around 2016) that sentiment rings hollow. Is it healthcare, or ‘access’? At present, the information is visceral.
Soredemos
@Willy
Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. It also, regardless of what you seem to think, isn’t a plan.
Particularly when it’s an obviously foolish hope. Harris isn’t even vaguely trending leftward. In fact she’s already made it clear that things like Medicare For All aren’t on the table. Which is an interesting strategy. Usually you want to Lucy and the football, not just preemptively tell people you’re not going to do something.
Harris would not be where she is in the party if she weren’t fundamentally a neoliberal shill. We’ve degraded a long, long way from the days of Henry Wallace.
In the end you’re going to vote blue no matter who, because I suspect that’s just something you always do. You’ll rationalize it to yourself on the grounds that the other guy will somehow be worse at genocide (???), or that okay, maybe the genocide won’t change much but at least she’ll be possibly better for domestic workers. Which is essentially admission that brown foreign lives matter less to you. But in reality even that is a very obviously doomed hope. Nothing will fundamentally change under Harris; domestically she will also suck. In fact she and the interests who support her are inherently hostile to meaningful change.
At the risk of revealing too much personal information, through circumstances I’ve ended up in a very insane niche in life where I have substantial guaranteed income that is isolated from the job market. I make upper middle-class PMC type money for literally nothing. I make PMC while never having to interact with PMC types, a class I utterly loathe. Everyone I work and hangout with are substantially lower down the income bracket. The class the Democratic party now considers its base cannot comprehend how dogshit the Biden (nee Trump, nee Obama, nee Bush, nee Clinton, nee nee nee) economy is.
I just had to spend ~700 out of pocket on my teeth, because what laughably passes for my employer dental coverage (a ‘generous’ $1500 a year) had already been exhausted. For I can afford it and it’s a minor annoyance, but for almost everyone I know this sort of thing would be a substantial financial hit. That is the Democrats legacy. Endless bombs for foreign Nazis (in at least two distinct flavors these days), but not a dime for the healthcare of actual Americans.
KT Chong
Kamala’s husband and step-children are Jewish. I have a feeling that, on Israel and Gaza, she will go wherever her husband and stepchildren go. If her Jewish husband and stepchildren fully support Israel, then she will also fully support Israel. If they have problems on what Israel has been doing to Gaza and Palestinians, (like many Jews in America do,) then there may be hope that she as the President will take a more balanced stance on the Israel-Palestinian issue.
somecomputerguy
Given Israels utter dependence, the potential costs of the Gaza war for the currently governing American elites, the utter lack of reward on any level for the current policy. And also, the low cost of reigning in.
What model of United States Imperial control does this fit? Because the U.S. looks like the cowering, dependent vassal to me.
bruce wilder
My “plan” has always been to try to tell the truth, moral or factual. I try not to be a fool. I am not trying to be in control or in charge or powerful. I sometimes try to persuade other people, mostly I hope in the general direction of being kind and honest.
mago
bruce wilder:
I try to persuade other people, mostly I hope in the direction of being kind and honest.
That’s a noble intention.
mago
Whoops left out the word “sometimes” when quoting bruce wilder.
A word can make a difference.
Forecasting Intelligence
Will be very interesting to see how all those Gaza protestors will vote on election day.
If they vote for Killer Kamala we will know it was all a sham and they don’t really care about Palestinians at all.
Substantively, there is zero difference between Kamala and Biden on Gaza.
bruce wilder
I am an idealist of sorts, but “noble” seems a bit too . . .
I was a liberal back before it meant performative gaslighter and friend to the CIA.
Willy
I’d rather engage somebody who like me, has been screwed by the system yet arrived at a completely different political view from mine, than somebody whose life is perfectly fine and arrived at their political views tribally. You’ll learn a lot more from the former because their angst is real. As for the latter, I’d rather listen to dogs howling at sirens. It’s mostly just repeating what somebody else said.
From our OG commenters, Bernays, Iron Laws, anacyclosis, and Bonhoeffer were especially useful for me, on both personal and macro levels. All deal with managing the median majority who are not us, and probably cannot ever think like us.
Ian, the posts are useful information for me, mostly. And Wikrent’s stuff. But when the commentary goes tribal…
I dunno, is that be the way it should be because original thinkers are so vastly outnumbered by tribalists, that thinkers can’t do much nationally without tribal support? If so, then going against the grain seems like an uphill battle when trying to influence those masses.
Kamala love is currently so prevalent in the leftist influencer world that it seems foolish to do more than predict future outcomes based on past results, and then wait and see what she really does to then pounce if she doesn’t surprise us in ways greater than Biden did (outside of being a puppet of Zionism).
The Obamas and Clintons spoke at the DNC, which sucked. But so did Bernie. It seems like yesterday when he was just a cranky old extremist outsider. Slow progress, but at least it’s something. How’s that kept going?
I get touchy about the whole “TDS” thing because I think Trump is well beyond just deranged and his syndrome is incurable. I presume what they really mean is ‘media diversion from working man economic reality to orange man bad’, or something. Isn’t there a better description, less confusing, aimed at more than just the anointed few?
Ian Welsh
Fair enough Willy.
FWIW, I started as a conservative: Red Tory. At BopNews, in fact, the password I was assigned was “redtory.” I did not expect to wind up on the radical left.
As for being screwed over, yeah.
(Red Tories were basically conservatives who also believed in social welfare programs. They don’t exist as a force any more, but at one time they pretty much ran the Canadian Progressive Conservative party. That party was taken over by “reform”, who definitely don’t believe in social programs and are socially retrograde. Shit, I was even a member of the Conservative party briefly.)
Willy
The weirdest part is I’m about as self reliant, personal responsibility, family values, personal austerity a person I know. Even back when I could afford the labor, I rarely hired it because I was so picky about the job being done right. Then I noticed conservatives at whatever economic level, were living those things in their own lives so infrequently that I had to declare the label to be some kind of mental defense.
All I had left to fall back on was “how did that expert-designed solution work?” I finally quit that team when I noticed that poor and/or dishonest players were getting cut a lot less often than the good ones. When commenters here had their debates over the evils of meritocracy I saw their ideas as fallback positions, just in case we ever did enter an age of true meritocracy.