Durov’s Russian, and an interesting guy. He refused to cooperate when Russia asked him for user information, for example. He appears to believe in the principle of freedom of speech, which is radical at this point. Telegram was banned in Russia from 2018 to 2021.
As most people know Telegram is where most uncensored information on the Russia-Ukraine and Gaza wars are to be found. Some of it, perhaps even a lot of it is bullshit, but if one really wants to know what’s happening, Telegram is one of the better places to find out, though it takes judgment and discretion. There are certainly Telegram channels which are far more accurate and honest than any major Western press outlet, just as there are those that are sewers of propaganda and lies.
France claims the arrest is because Telegram doesn’t moderate in line with EU law, which is probably true. The laws, however, are bad laws which make freedom of speech essentially impossible. The idea of misinformation has been weaponized to mean “what the government says is true” and since most governments are lying about both wars, well…
As Truman said, “I don’t give them Hell. I just tell the truth about them, and they think it’s Hell.”
Telegram is one of the few places left which somewhat lives up to the promise of the early internet of a place without censors or gatekeepers, where anyone could have their say. It’s understandable that governments and powerful people don’t want that, before the internet you could only be heard by large numbers of the gatekeepers would let you, and mostly they don’t. Youngs don’t remember that world, but it felt like there was constantly a gag on: there could be no honest speech which wasn’t approved.
There’s no sense in pretending it’s all upside, it isn’t, but the downsides are the price of actually allowing meaningful freedom of speech. In the old days we just didn’t hear from those the gatekeepers wouldn’t let thru. Oh, there were some exceptions, but they were exceptions.
So fuck France and fuck Macron. Just another fascist neoliberal who wants to remove freedoms and use them to enable war and genocide.
As for Pavel, he made a mistake traveling in Europe. It’s a hard balancing beam he’s on. Though Russia’s currently supportive, as Telegram is a way for their side to get their message out, they haven’t always been. There’s really no major free speech country left, and the fact is that even CEOs are at the mercy of states. You need a state to protect you, and there isn’t really a trustworthy one around any more.
Dan
I’m honestly a little torn on the cost-benefit analysis of “free speech” in an era where any anonymous coward can spread dangerous lies that get people killed with usually zero consequences for themselves.
But I also recognize that in a world with healthy politics, where the people actually had power and society was run for *their* benefit, and not just the benefit of a wealthy capitalist elite, then people might actually trust what their governments have to say, and that the appeal of such lies and conspiracies would be significantly reduced.
Ian Welsh
Right now the media itself lies so much that Telegram just allows other people to get in on the lying.
Ian Welsh
Right now the media itself lies so much that Telegram just allows other people to get in on the lying.
Tallifer
As I understand it, this is a case of prosecution because he refused to cooperate with efforts to shut down child pornography and drug pushing chat groups. Nothing to do with politics or usual free speech.
Ian Welsh
That’s always the excuse and only sometimes the real reason.
Oakchair
A lie* from an “anonymous coward” kills a person and people start foaming about the need to end the right to speak. A lie from a captured government agency or rich corporation kills a million people and people yawn as they turn the TV back on.
People want censorship because they no longer want the responsibility of thinking for themselves. They don’t even want other people to think.
Following orders is morality
Refusing to think is Intelligence
Your screen is bliss
*Lie: 1- Something untrue. 2- A truth the powerful want suppressed. 3- Any questioning of the approved narrative.
bruce wilder
There is also the issue of secure communications — not sure if that is live here.
I do not think a user can be anonymous to Telegram. Can anyone confirm?
bruce wilder
Alexander S Vindman, a key figure in Trump’s first impeachment:
Pretty clear.
Feral Finster
Why does this surprise you?
Expect to see more and more overt censorship, along with establishment booklickers making increasingly thin rationalizations and excuses for it.
Remember, kids, totalitarianism is ever always only something that happens in Bad Countries, you know the countries that the Empire for whatever reason doesn’t like. When WE do it, then The Boots Of Freedom Are On The March or somesuch bullshit.
Ian Welsh
I can’t see where I indicated surprise.
Willy
Truly amazing the variety of Ukraine and Gaza influencer positions out there. Most follow the Fox News model of ‘pick your audience then satiate their need for comfort food’.
If I was in the influencer biz, I’d do reports favoring one side, then put on a fake beard and glasses and do reports favoring the other side.
Willy
That way if they came for me, they could choose the one they preferred.
StewartM
Talifer
As I understand it, this is a case of prosecution because he refused to cooperate with efforts to shut down child pornography and drug pushing chat groups. Nothing to do with politics or usual free speech.
That shouldn’t be the real issue, as the legal standard is supposed to be ‘the hosting service isn’t responsible for criminal activity committed by users’. After all, the 9/11 attackers used Yahoo Mail. Did the CEO of Yahoo get arrested for that?
Ian is right, TG is what the internet used to be like; and as such, a good thing.
ibaien
there are really only two models of internet possible, “encrypted free-for-all” and “highly regulated shopping mall”. most people here pine for the former, but it comes with a lot of child porn and drug deals and virulently racist memes and deepfakes and all the other stuff – how could it not?
global civil society has basically agreed that what we’re getting is the latter, and anyone offering freedom and good crypto is gonna get grabbed. he should have been smart enough to stay on the fringes.
Mark Pontin
What is this ‘global civil society’ of which you speak, ibaien?
All I see is a world of more or less psychopathic elites intent on maintaining their power
mago
So, according to ibaien he should’ve been looking over his shoulder like the drug trafficking, child porn terrorist enabler he’s accused of being, which is not the issue here. State control and suppression of information is.
It’s rich that the ‘crats who indulge in pedophilia, drug use and massive sales of weaponry want to pile on an internet platform creator, because, you know, morals and disinformation and stuff.
We’re supposed to support the hypocrisy and toxic ideologies that infest the western halls of powers and the players like Macron and Schulz and their ilk, all of whom are bribable?
Glad I haven’t eaten yet because I might upchuck.
Oakchair
“encrypted free-for-all” (internet) but it comes with a lot of child porn
—-
Paging Jeffery Epstein on line 1.
—–
and drug deals
—
Who will think of the Sackler’s?
—-
and virulently racist memes
—
At least there won’t be any Palestinian racist memes since the West is killing all of them.
The earth is burning, the intelligence agencies ran a pedophile service in order to bribe and extort the powerful, 60% of people are chronically ill, 1/30 children have autism, the west is aiding and abetting genocide, NATO seems to think bringing us closer to a nuclear war is no big deal. Yet people are afraid of drug deals, and racists memes online…. ROTFL
“The only intelligent tactical response to (peoples inane first world problems) is to laugh defiantly at it.” —Guy with so much fear and trembling he was with God
Carborundum
I remember what folks consider the early Internet. Blogs were the big new thing, podcasts were on their first way out, gatekeepers were bad and stupid was going pro. Big learning from that was, given sufficient volume and network breadth, even the worst crap will find its audience and gatekeepers have some useful functions.
The *real* early Internet, I remember that too. I remember when the AOL interconnect went live and the median IQ on all the usenet groups I was active in dropped by 15 points overnight.
Also: get off my lawn.
Jorge
France banned the Alsatian language (an odd dialect of German) from 1945 to 1970. It was never a free country.
Mark Pontin
@ Ian —
Talking of global civil society, though really this is off-topic, this news from this morning Financial Times. If you haven’t seen it already, you’ll appreciate it.
China’s export curbs on semiconductor materials stoke chip output fears:
Western customers say restrictions on supply could hit production of advanced microprocessors and optical products
https://archive.ph/KjatF
Original FT link here – https://www.ft.com/content/9cd56880-4360-4e11-8c22-e810d3787e88
Chinese export controls on crucial semiconductor materials are hitting supply chains and stoking fears of shortfalls in western production of advanced chips and military optical hardware … China introduced the restrictions, which it says safeguard its “national security and interests”, last year in response to US-led controls on sales of advanced chips and chipmaking equipment.
The curbs and subsequent export controls have highlighted Beijing’s dominance of global supply of dozens of crucial resources. The country produces 98 per cent of the world’s supply of gallium and 60 per cent of germanium, according to the US Geological Survey.
“The situation with China is critical. We are depending on them,” said a person who works at a large consumer of semiconductor materials ….
bruce wilder
I went down this rabbit hole this morning, coming up for air well before the end, if there was an end. Connecting “all the dots” does make it seem like the imminent collapse of Ukraine could easily become the collapse of the UK and much else of the neoliberal blob. If you begin to entertain the hypothesis that all significant news events are part of a nefarious plan to stave off collapse, . . . it really does become hard not to “see it.”
Not good for mental health or other delusions.
https://alexkrainer.substack.com/p/the-coming-collapse-of-britain
Feral Finster
France literally gave Durov honorary French citizenship for his support of freedom of speech, then arrested him when he didn’t censor those whom the Empire wants censored.
https://indi.ca/white-empire-is-arresting-my-homies/
And yes, kittens, yes, this was at America’s behest.
Feral Finster
@Tallifer: And you believe that, right?
So when is the president of Verizon getting arrested? I hear there are illegal conversations going on using Verizon cell phones right now!
@ ibaien:
“global civil society has basically agreed that what we’re getting is the latter, and anyone offering freedom and good crypto is gonna get grabbed. he should have been smart enough to stay on the fringes.”
Tell us when “global civil society” reached this agreement, and when that made failure to censor a criminal act?
Ian Welsh
Nice catch Mark. I hadn’t seen that. Thank you.
Purple Library Guy
“You need a state to protect you, and there isn’t really a trustworthy one around any more.”
I take issue with the last two words. There never was.
Although really, when it comes to the flow of information on the internet, I worry SOME about the censorship per se, somewhat MORE about the massaging of what you see by algorithms like Google’s or Facebook’s, and MOST about the use of money to promote certain viewpoints in the apparently “organic” freedom-of-speech spaces. If hiring masses of sock puppets and amplifying them with gajillions of bots wasn’t a thing, the problem of rampant fascism in the apparently-free places would be way smaller.
Just as it has been with the old style mass media, the most insidious thing is the appearance of freedom combined with the reality that reach is mostly a product of propaganda.
mago
Information gatekeepers, state actors with their toxic agendas serve their oligarchic masters, not the minions, and these masters of the universe and their bots don’t care fuck all what we think because it’s all yesterday’s news tomorrow.
Actions have consequences in the material world, kinda like that what goes around comes around thingy, so ye shall reap as ye sow.
Oh my god.
Lions and tigers and bears. Oh my.
It’s not like we didn’t know. . .