And Trump is very slightly ahead in the polls.
As is usually the case in modern American elections, much that is important isn’t at stake in this election: most notably whether or not the genocide in Palestine will continue. Both candidates and both parties are under the thumb of the Israeli lobby. Nor is an end to the terminal decline of the American Empire on the ballot, though Trump pretends it is.
That isn’t to say the election doesn’t matter, but it’s a choice between two terrible candidates. Trump is clearly senile and mercurial is the kindest word one can use to describe him. Harris is not that bright, and appears to fall into the Bush Jr. category: something happened to damage her. Plenty of rumors of alcohol problems, though I don’t know if they’re valid.
Both candidates are moral and ethical monsters, whose ambition and vanity are such that they would kill or impoverish any number of people to achieve their personal goals. (No, don’t even. This isn’t in question.)
I can’t be bothered to endorse either of them. This is a case of “would you prefer Satan or Beelzebub?” Unless you’re in a swing state I’d strongly urge you to vote third party or spoil your ballot. Even in a swing state you should seriously consider it.
About sixty percent of Americans think that the two-party system is broken, but they won’t vote for a third party because they think it’s a wasted vote, and this collective action problem makes continued decline inevitable.
(This blog is for understanding the present, making educated guesses at the future, and telling truths, usually unpleasant ones. There aren’t a lot of places like this left on the Web. Every year I fundraise to keep it going. If you’d like to help, and can afford to, please Subscribe or Donate.)
Domestically it’s clear that Harris, who says she wouldn’t have done a single thing differently than Biden, is the candidate of status quo decline. Things will keep getting worse in about the same way. Trump will shake things up, primarily because of who he will appoint to government and their plans of taking over the bureaucracy.
Democrats aren’t serious about abortion rights, but Trump will make the situation even worse. His economic policies will be disastrous in different ways than Harris’s: tariffs aren’t a bad idea, but without industrial policy and policies designed to end rent-seeking and funnel resources into industry they won’t don’t do much but cause different types of pain. His appointments to the supreme court will be awful, though that ship has sailed and until Democrats are willing to court pack it seems unlikely there will be any near-term change.
This election was Harris’s to win, but she didn’t want it enough to distance herself strategically from Biden. It wouldn’t have taken much, I’d bet that just some serious talk about taming the inflation which ordinary people feel but economists insist doesn’t exist would have done it. Or she could have come out against genocide, and courted the left instead of the right by campaigning with Liz Cheney, et al.
But at the end of the day, people like Harris would rather the right win than do anything seriously left-wing like “not mass murder”, which is now so far from the central axis of American politics that it amounts to extremism, and is treated by universities, the political class and the justice system as the hand maiden to terrorism.
In such a decaying Empire, the truth is there are few good, viable, choices left. Pick your arch-demon or vote for someone who at least isn’t into mass murder but won’t win.
Feral Finster
“Unless you’re in a swing state I’d strongly urge you to vote third party or spoil your ballot. Even in a swing state you should seriously consider it.”
ESPECIALLY if you are in a swing state. Leverage is worthless if everyone knows that you never will use it.
“If the rule you followed brought you to this, of what use was the rule?” – Anton Chigurh
Feral Finster
And don’t kid yourself by saying that you’ll vote “with reservations” or “holding your nose” as you vote.
It doesn’t matter why you vote or how much enthusiasm you vote with. Your vote counts exactly the same as every other vote.
Joan
I have voted! Crossing my fingers.
Purple Library Guy
I don’t think Mr. Welsh’s position is viable. Sure, Harris is a moral monster willing to see the demise of millions if that’s what it takes to gain power. Nearly all the higher-ups in both parties are. But most of the Democratic higher-ups aren’t monsters without any limits. What they consider and don’t consider a limit on behaviour is very weird from the perspective of people objectively considering ethics–but those limits are there nonetheless. There are evil things they will not do, mainly domestically, because that’s their tribal tradition or something, even though internationally they will not blink an eye at doing far worse things. Again, they’re very tribal . . . foreigners are non-people.
But if you look at what the Republicans these days say, and at things like Project 2025, it is clear they are monsters with no limits. They will do the straight up fascism if they can, and it is looking increasingly plausible that they can–they have plans that I have seen called repugnant, evil, and so forth . . . but nobody has presented an analysis saying those plans can’t WORK. To the Republicans, not only are foreigners non-people, but everyone who isn’t a white male evangelist Christian is non-people, and to most of the leaders even their own foaming-at-the-mouth supporters are non-people. You just have to look at the comments on an article in the mainstream media . . . almost all the right wing comments are not just aggressive but violent, glorying in ideas of destruction and negativity.
The centrist project is about pretending to be good (while actually being no such thing). That’s awful and hypocritical, but it allows a culture of wanting the good to exist, that can at least sometimes push governance to do a good thing once in a while. The alt-right project, which is the right we have these days, is about training people to be evil. Their objective is for everything to be horrible right down to the grassroots level, and they’re having a lot of success. This is a real, important difference.
I would vote for domestically useless with active evil in foreign policy, rather than allow the pure unvarnished evil of theocratic fascism to win. Democratic hypocrisy is more infuriating, but in terms of real world suffering it just isn’t as bad. There was a time when Liberal, Tory, same old story was pretty much true. This is not that time.
(There’s also a side note that modern Republicans and Conservatives are just incredibly incompetent at governing. Partly it’s that they don’t think government should even be doing good things because that would be Big Government, Deep State, not-the-market and so forth. Partly it’s that, because they think that, none of them ever bother to learn how to do it. Partly it’s that increasingly, not just rank and file but honchos in right wing parties are people stupid enough to fall for increasingly bizarre right wing propaganda, so they’re morons who couldn’t govern their way out of a paper bag. Partly it’s because even the few relatively bright ones are massively corrupt, so any real administrative thing they do will be for the purpose of diverting public funds to private interests in return for a fat bribe–they may even consider this virtuous because government should have less money. Add all these things together and they would suck even if they weren’t murderous authoritarian loons who want to check your kids’ genitals before they let them go to the bathroom)
In the particular case of Trump, I could come up with a story that says, in foreign policy, because the Europeans and a lot of others think he’s a stupid gauche dork, and because he has a more dovish position on the Ukraine war in particular, as president he would help end that war and his foreign policy incompetence otherwise would accelerate the breakup of American hegemony, which would be a good thing that might perhaps outweigh the damage he would do domestically. Possibly, but he’s probably even MORE likely than the Democrats to get the US involved in wars with Iran and China, plus anyone he happens to get annoyed with one day because their leader snubbed him. And, the Ukraine war is going to end in a while anyway–I’m really starting to see signs of the Ukrainian armed forces running out of gas. I wouldn’t want to fail to vote against Trump based on incredibly chancy speculation that that aggressive, random, loose cannon bozo wouldn’t start dangerous wars.
Oakchair
This election was Harris’s to win
—–
I’m not sure what their campaign strategy is if they even have one.
What voters are they trying to win when they call Trump a fascist? What person is unsure who they will vote for, but upon hearing Harris tell them Trump hates democracy will vote Harris?
Which undecided voter will vote for Harris after hearing about abortion for the 10,000 time in the past month?
Which voters know who Liz Cheney is let alone give a shit what she thinks?
When asked what she would do differently Harris replied alone the lines of ‘not a thing’. When given the option of being a semi-competent candidate and soothing her ego she choose her ego.
The primary concern of 10%-20% of the country is the chronic illness epidemic. Harris and the DNC not only blew them off, but spent their time insulting and arguing for censorship. In their arrogant ego filled hate they didn’t even wonder if gift wrapping 10%-20% of voters and sending them to Trump would be a self-inflicted wound.
Soredemos
It’s a choice between poop and shit. And I’m not even entirely sure which is which.
The genocide in Gaza will continue regardless of who wins, perhaps a bit slower or faster depending on the victor (but it also very well may be substantially over, at least in north Gaza, by the time the winner is actually inaugurated, so even this might be a meaningless technicality).
Domestically, Trump’s platform, to the extent it even exists, sucks, but he’s likely to be petty and inept at actually implementing anything, just like the first time. Harris barely has a platform (it took her literal months to even put out a list of supposed policies), and there’s little reason to expect her to actually deliver on anything even vaguely good sounding. So pick your preferred flavor of neoliberal race to the bottom.
I think the most practical outcome will be whether we quickly get nuked by Russia as Harris doubles (triples?) down on Ukraine, or if Trump wins and gives up on Ukraine to instead shift focus to starting WW3 with China over Taiwan.
mago
I’ll be the guy who says vote how you may, the corrupt bureaucratic institutions will keep rolling along until they don’t.
This will be the first national election that I’ll sit out while in country. Feeling a twinge of something or another at the decision. The ballot sits on a table, unopened.
Gotta open it and vote locally.
Might as well write in Alfred E. Neuman for president, or Jerry Garcia, although they’re both dead.
What the hell, Dead Presidents.
It’s what we’ve got.
It’s what we do.
bruce wilder
The idea that Democrats have limits but Republicans do not is successful public relations, not an objective appraisal of reality. I associate this idea with the similar notion that Trump represents a fascist impulse in the American polity, but somehow the Democrats in their alliance with the banksters and the intelligence agencies will save “our democracy”.
Obama in 2008 was the last mainstream Presidential candidate I voted for. It was not a mistake I was willing to repeat. I vote in California, where the outcome is never in doubt for President or much of anything else. “Throwing your vote away” on a third-party candidate could be a way of signaling that popular support for something better is available, but very few people are willing to do it. Which possibly indicates that most people regard the situation so hopelessly beyond their ken or power as to be not worth bothering about.
Revelo
Watch this video and tell me you aren’t secretly looking forward to 4 more years of Trump. Sure, it might end in disaster but it won’t be boring 4 years:
https://x.com/elonmusk/status/1850700452805136479/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1850700452805136479¤tTweetUser=elonmusk
anon
Trump will almost certainly win. He’s ahead in most swing states. I believe he will win Arizona, Wisconsin, North Carolina, Georgia, and Pennsylvania.
I give Michigan a slight edge to Harris because she will get the black vote in Detroit, but it will be very, very close, and she may still lose the state. She has lost a large number of Arab Americans to Jill Stein and Trump.
I voted for Jill Stein. The Democrats almost had my vote because I liked some of the things Tim Walz did as governor. But he isn’t the one at the top of the ticket. Harris is so bereft of a personality or any strong beliefs. All she had to do to win was distance herself from Biden and name a few things she’d be better/different on, like Gaza or the economy, and she could have likely eked out a win.
Geoff Dewan
Well, that was depressing as shit- even though you’re probably mostly right.
It’s clear that the actual policy of Israel is “From the River to the Sea”. And, for a host of reasons, most of which I don’t understand because I don’t know what they are, there is a bipartisan consensus of political elites that are OK with it too. It’s not just money but I’ll be damned if I can figure out the rest of it. Also obvious that the consensus of regional opinion in that area is basically, “get this over with you guys” so we can get back to just being rich.
Living in California and watching Harris for the last 20 years or so I would say she’s a bit over denigrated. Really not “low IQ” and definitely better looking than Donald Trump. So there’s that.
An essay or so back you mentioned that both the U.S. and UK had a brief opportunity for redemption in the form of Jeremy Corbyn and Bernie Sanders. I believed that whole heartedly and worked my ass off for Bernie in 2016 and 2020. He was the third party in that race but the DNC managed to foreclose that vision both times.
Yes, the system is corrupt, crystallized and cancerous and deserves to be destroyed but I’d prefer it not be Donald Trump that does the honors. Too much collateral damage and, by the way he describes “the enemy within”, I deeply fear for myself, my family and my friends being early victims of his holy mission. I will do whatever I can to defeat him up to and including voting for Kamala. Really cannot stand the sight and sound of him. It’s visceral
That’s my current psychic reality. Hopefully I’m overstating.
Eric F
Hey, Look at that! I agree with all of you, except Purple Library Guy. The Democrats have not done anything for the hoi polloi except theater since about 1969.
Thanks, Ian for putting up this post.
Bruce Wilder, I did exactly what you did in 2008, voting in California for a mainstream candidate for the last time, too. Now I’m in Kansas, and all (or nearly) of my friends are voting for Harris, even though we know Trump will get the electoral vote here.
I can’t even talk about simple arithmetic without them getting mad at me. Just yesterday, I had a friend, a smart 70 year-old man, who describes himself as a liberal gun-toting Southerner tell me that he is sure that Putin was the only reason Trump beat Hillary in 2016.
The level of ignorance in this country is astonishing.
The few Trump supporters I know actually believe that he will do something that will benefit them. Or weirder still, they think that Trump will make the country more moral or Christian or something. I keep wanting to send them a copy of that photo of Trump at Studio 54, wearing eye shadow and rouge and Roman Centurion drag while on the arm of Roy Cohn. Not that they’d be able to even see that.
Crazy.
Stay safe all.
marku52
Just voted Stein. Not that I want Trump to win, I desperately want the Dems to lose
They have turned their backs on every principle they ever stood for, and never even tried to implement the popular policies they occasionally ran on.
Oh, and Dementia Joe just called Trump voters “Garbage”
Aint voting for “Biden With Tits”
elkern
I live in a safe Blue State (CT), so I’ll be voting for Jill Stein and other Greens where possible. If I still lived in PA, I’d probably hold my nose and vote for Harris, because I still hate the GOP far more than the Democratic Party.
Purple Library Guy
Well, if you’re in a strong (whichever direction) state, your vote doesn’t matter tactically so do whatever–voting for a third party would be about the best thing available to do.
But as to Trump, “but he’s likely to be petty and inept at actually implementing anything, just like the first time” and “vote how you may, the corrupt bureaucratic institutions will keep rolling along until they don’t” and “the similar notion that Trump represents a fascist impulse in the American polity, but somehow the Democrats in their alliance with the banksters and the intelligence agencies will save “our democracy”.”
–Yeah, that is all bullshit. Trump is still inept, sure, and doesn’t really have the energy to seriously go for fascism. But he’s got a squad of energetic ideologues this time, they have a program, they have a method laid out for replacing the whole fucking bureaucracy with fellow fanatics–so no, the corrupt bureaucracy won’t just keep rolling on, it will get filled with a bunch of shitheads eager to jail you for not being Christian enough. If you look at project 2025, they want to ban contraception, they want to ban porn, they want to ban gays let alone trans people . . . it goes on and on. And we know how much they hate unions. Vance wants women barefoot and in the kitchen, Trump says he’ll use the military on protesters . . . and that’s just what he says now. And the evidence is clear on the governance and quality of life differences between red and blue states–red states are fucking people up worse than blue ones in a whole host of ways, to the point where it’s causing divergences in life expectancy.
And Wilder, cute dodge using that two-clause sentence, but that just doesn’t cut it. No of course the Democrats aren’t going to save your democracy and there isn’t much to save. But yes, Trump does represent a fascist impulse in the American polity. DUH!!! Honestly, you can lay down inflammatory recent Trump quotes and inflammatory 30s Hitler quotes and they sound just the fucking same. He consistently panders to racism and violence, consistently dehumanizes non-whites, and talks a whole lot about basically throwing out any kind of rule of law in favour of just putting in jail anyone he doesn’t like. The level of violence in his speeches is far higher now than in 2016–some guys did a study, violent references are like three times as frequent, while stuff about how great he’s going to make the economy or whatever is significantly less frequent. He has shifted a long distance towards more fascist since the early days, probably because he’s been hanging out with fascists for 8 years since he decided he could use them and they decided they could use him.
And the Democrats . . . are a lot of horrible things, sure. But they aren’t fascists, and they’re not religious fanatics, and in a certain sense they’re not even racist, and it makes a fucking difference.
I actually find it infuriating that the Republicans have somehow managed, no matter how awful the Democrats become, to surge their evil level so massively that the bloody Democrats still manage to be significantly less so and the “lesser evil” doctrine remains intact. But my fury is not relevant to the cold fact: The Republicans are indeed managing to be so horrendously bad that as evil goes, the Democrats remain significantly lesser. It sucks, it holds together the ludicrous fractured pseudo-democratic two-party system that I would far prefer to be imploding. But there’s no point whining about it or pretending it isn’t the case. The Trump Republicans really are significantly, solidly, quantitatively and qualitatively worse; if you live somewhere that it matters, it is imperative to vote against Trump. It’s a real pity that the only way to do that is to vote for Harris, but that’s the reality Americans are living in.
somecomputerguy
However many people are hurting, however badly, that is nothing compared to what Trump will bring.
Everyone who actually deserves it, already has their passport current. The nanosecond they are at real risk, they will be gone. That will be “the resistance” this time.
RFK as Health Czar. Anyone up to speed on his long-COVID policy?
Musk is promising to cut govt. spending 30%. Think they wouldn’t come after entitlements?
Last time Trumps policies were moderated the idea he would face an election at the end of his term. Think the 22nd Amendment isn’t on the table? Would anyone like to argue that Harris would cancel the next election too?
The blood really hasn’t started to run yet from state abortion bans. A Mifepristone ban will be a slam-dunk.
StewartM
I’m with PLG. There are big differences. And in fact Palestinians say a Trump victory if their worst fear, even though they’re not enthusiastic about Harris:
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/7/23/trump-would-be-the-worst-palestinians-react-to-us-presidential-race
(And no, inflation isn’t any worse now than it was in Reagan’s term, it’s our media putting its thumb heavily on the scale on the side of Trump).
jm
StewartM, I’m not sure you read the entire article you refer to. Six Palestinians are quoted in the story. Their remarks are below:
1). “Trump would be the worst.”
“But any candidate that becomes president will not support Palestinians.”
2). “Biden brought American machines to protect the Israeli occupation and used American vetoes [in the United Nations Security Council] to protect Israel’s genocidal policies.”
“Since the [Hamas] attack in October, America has dealt with Israel like it’s the 51st [US state].”
3). “There is no indication that Harris had disagreements with Biden about [Israel’s war on Gaza].”
“I think it will be more of the same.”
“Kamala isn’t an outsider that will come in to challenge the status quo.”
4). “I’m not expecting a big change in US policy.”
“But maybe Harris would work with the UN more and pressure Netanyahu to do a [captive] deal and to find a solution for Gaza because the entire world has an interest in restoring stability in the region.”
5). “Honestly, Palestinians really don’t care who the next US president will be. They just want whoever it is to stop the genocide.”
6). “With American support, Israel is the most powerful killer of the Arab people.”
“Netanyahu doesn’t listen. Nobody gets through to him – not Biden nor anybody else,.”
“Why? Because nobody [in America] is willing to use their leverage to stop him.”
The prevailing sentiment I see in the above, vis a vis the US election, is despair over a reality that is extremely unlikely to change regardless of who wins. I not going to fault anyone for voting as they choose but using this article to help rationalize one’s vote for Harris is weak tea indeed.
mago
Froth is a versatile word. There’s no furtherance in frothing at the mouth over Kamalabala and the great Orange One and their projected polices, whereas a frothy head of beer or root beer could bring benefit to a well poured beverage of one’s choice.
different clue
I agree with PLG and somecomputerguy. I may be one of very few here who do.
Another blogger named Ran Prieur offered some interesting thoughts on the Kam versus Don election. Normally cut-and-pasting bunches of someone else’s words is frowned on, but I am hoping this bunch of words is considered high-value enough that it will be permitted to run. And here it is . . . .
” October 28. Back to politics, this election is really frustrating for rational people, because Trump’s flaws are obvious, they’re exactly what his opponents say they are, while the flaws of the Democratic party are so subtle that it’s hard to say why they’re losing. The best I can explain it is that the Democrats have obsolete propaganda. In 90 years they have not changed their way of framing economic issues.
I’d like Biden to stand up and say, “My fellow Americans, the state of the union is bad. We live in a declining empire at the twilight of the age of growth, and there’s nothing we can do about it. We’ve been infantilized by social media, we no longer have the skill base to maintain the infrastructure, and we’re all going to get poorer except the top tenth of one percent, who pull all the strings including mine. That’s why we need boring and competent leadership to keep things from going to absolute shit.”
They can’t say that because they’ve dug themselves too deep in the hole of bland optimism. I fully expect Trump to win, if not this year then in 2028, because he has already shown the power to cheat death, and even full-on dementia will not change the reasons people are voting for him. What we have to understand about these times is that there will be no relief.”
And even more recently he wrote another bunch of words which I will offer a link to, because there is a limit to copy-paste. He prefaced that bunch of words with . . .
” October 30. I voted for Kamala Harris, but I feel like Willy Wonka saying, no, stop, to the bad kids. I must express my disapproval of this tragic and hilarious thing that must happen. Here’s one more attempt to explain it:” . . . . and here is the link to that explanation.
http://www.ranprieur.com/
I am many degrees of separation from Dungeons and Dragons, but I had found myself thinking that Kam is mediocre lawful evil whereas Trump is chaotic lawless evil. There would certainly be a difference in atmosphere between the two.
Or to put it another way, Kam offers 4 more years of Brezhnevian Stagnation Decline whereas TrumpenVance offers 4 or maybe 12 years of Yeltsinian Piratization Orgy and Saturnalian Bonfire of the last vestiges of Regulatory Governance.
I will say this: a TrumpenVance Administration would be very good for the tar mining business in Alberta. I wonder if any Canadian Polling Firms have done research among the Albertans ( Albertexans? Texalbertans?) in the Tar Patch to see if they have a hopeful preferrence as to who wins the American National Election.
If you hate America and wish to see America burn itself at the stake, then TrumpenVance is the President for you.
Seattle Resident
The numbers from the return ballots in PA, MI, and WI contradict the right wing polls flooding the zone showing Trump with a lead. The D’s are outnumbering those of the R’s. Check out the work of Simon Rosenberg and Tom Bonior on the raw data of the early vote. You also have to factor in disgruntled R’s switching to D in greater excess than the other way around; factor in the Puerto Rican insults and the 450k Puerto Rican population in PA. The exit polls in AZ have Harris up 53% to 44%. If Trump wins, it will likely be through theft via the courts, particularly “The court” rather than a fair account of the ballots.
@differentclue, if Trump doesn’t steal it in 2024, he has said that’s it, no more runs. On the campaign trail, he is looking like a person that doesn’t have any left in him.
KT Chong
Good thing that nowadays I want China and Russia to win, and America will lose with either Harris or Trump, which is fine with me.
What is broken in America is not just the two-party political system, the Democratic Party or the Republican Party. That kind of problem is hard to fix but still fixable.
It is the people. It is the culture. It is the society. That is nigh impossible to fix. I live among Americans, there are a few good people here and there, but they are the minority. I know overall they are a downright rotten people, (sorry, it is true,) and they make up the majority. They do not even recognize or even realize they themselves are a problem, so there is no way to even start fixing it. They just want to blame the problem on everyone else: the government, Biden, Trump, Democrats, Republicans, China, Russia, etc.
KT Chong
It is not just the political establishment that unconditionally supports Israel. The majority of Americans support Israel — even if they know the Palestinians people have been oppressed and massacred. Therefore, the US government DOES reflect and represent the American people on the issue of Israel.
The majority of Americans blame Russia for the Ukraine War. I suppose you can the lack of media coverage and information (i.e., on what caused and led up to the war) for the general ignorance of American on the war. Still, ignorance is not an excuse. It is still on Americans.
The US is a democracy. In a democracy, American people cannot excuse themselves for the atrocious actions and immoral behaviors of their government. Frankly, I see in Americans that attitude and mentality of “we are number one”, “everyone should do what we say (but not what we do)”, “you listen to us or else” — the same attitude and mentality that drives and underlines US foreign policies.
I have actually tried to explain to a couple Americans on what causes and led to the Russian invasion of Ukraine, (i.e., the NATO expansion, the ethnic cleansing of Russians in Eastern Ukraine, the US intent to use Ukraine to weaken Russia and overthrow Putin,) … what a waste of time that was. Those Americans two were not stupid people. They were college-educated. Even after I had explained and made clear what had happened, they still blame Russia and Putin. It is not just ignorance. It is Russophobia, which is actually very prevalent among Americans (or just Anglos in general.) It is bigotry, it is racism, except it is against another white people, (i.e., Russian,) but it is still bigtory and racism nevertheless. Bigotry and racism are actually very prevalent among Americans. America is full of bigots and racists.
It is the same bigotry and racism for why Americans overwhelmingly support Israel. It is not religiosity or Christian Zionism (Evangelism). Americans simply do not see Palestinians and Arabs as human beings deserving of being treated equally as Israelis who look white. I have come to realize that Americans are actually a very immoral and unethical people… even more so than Chinese, (who can be bad their own way but really not as much as bad as Americans; but Chinese people are actually a far more ethical and moral than Americans.) That is the truth, and that is my conclusion. You may be an American and feel and think differently, but then you are in the minority and do NOT represent the overall American attitude and position.
The US government IS a reflection of the American people.
Flaser
It may take serious struggle to get those 3rd party votes counted:
https://apnews.com/article/georgia-election-cornel-west-cruz-ballot-access-7e819ec5e06925e88bc36a20b0d69526
Soredemos
Oh no, guys! Trump might do a fascism! Let’s just ignore when he was literally already President and while deeply stupid (and hilarious), it wasn’t fascism. And then he left, as fascists are prone to doing (and no, the January 7 riot does not a coup attempt make).
‘But Project 2025!’. This is like QAnon for Liberals. And if anything in that direction does happen, watch as Team Blue votes for it.
Domestically your one choice is more neoliberal hellscape, and for foreign policy is more genocide. But tell me again about the specter of fascism.
And no, what Palestinians fear most isn’t a Trump win. It’s starving to death. Which is going to happen with either candidate. In fact very likely at least a couple of those people interviewed have already died. If not, they will by inauguration day.
I can’t describe how weak the argument that Trump will be the danger to Palestinians is, when the other candidate is number 2 in the government that is the one actually currently facilitating genocide. Do you not see how disgustingly pathetic this line of argument is?
Vote blue, don’t vote blue; I don’t care. If you can do it and mange to sleep at night thinking you’re a good or rational person, good for you I guess. As far as I’m concerned you’re an enabler of epic serial killers.
Swamp Yankee
So far as Americans being worse — or better — than other peoples, as K.T. Chong asserts above, I think we can and should reject this proposition. Humanity “contains multitudes,” as the great American poet Whitman put it. I find it particularly strange to suggest that China, with its recent (last century) history of millions of deaths in internal civil wars and revolutions, is somehow less subject to the supremely human tendency to self-seeking and cruelty. People are people, across space and time.
So far as the substance of this post — people are certainly free to vote for either or no candidate. I agree with Purple Library Guy, different clue, and others; people certainly can cast votes for Trump if they want, but I think those who, like some of the commenters at Naked Capitalism, call for the “altruistic punishment” of the Democrats should be clear-eyed about what they are calling for. Let me give you an example of what such “altruistic [ed. — altruistic for whom?] punishment” might actually entail.
We know that the conservative [sic] legal movement has sought to destroy the Administrative state for a long time. We know that Project 2025, though Trump denies any connection (despite connections of personnel between his administration and Project 2025), has taken aim at the EPA. We know further that, even if one wishes to strain credulity and maintain that Trump somehow has nothing to do with Project 2025, that the 2024 GOP platform is clear about its enthusiasm for slashing regulations.
Let’s look at the possible consequences of a gutted EPA on a local issue in my area, Southeastern Massachusetts. Here, we have a deeply irresponsible multinational corporation which seeks to discharge radioactively and chemically contaminated wastewater into Cape Cod Bay from the decommissioning of a nuclear power plant. The issue here is that this violates both state law as well as the concurrent state and federal permits issued by the US EPA and the Mass. Dept. of Environmental Protection.
What is notable is that the coalition against this corporation has been truly broad, routinely winning 80+ percent of the vote in Towns all around Cape Cod Bay. Extremely conservative fishermen have united with extremely crunchy left environmentalists, along with just everyday people who want our environmental laws enforced. It is genuinely a small ‘r’ republican and lower case ‘d’ democratic effort across the several Towns.
Now, the EPA played a critical role in telling this corporation, no you can’t dump this water into the bay in violation of your permit, and if you try, we can send you to Federal jail. This compelled that corporation to realize that if it didn’t go through the legal process to try to amend its permit (which we just defeated this summer after nearly 18 months), it faced possible criminal sanctions.
If the EPA hadn’t done that — if it couldn’t do that because its operational capacity had been destroyed — then we would be in a much worse situation. The legal letters threatening prosecution by the EPA were critical in our effort. I believe that we would have faced a much harder uphill climb, and potential defeat out of the gate, without the EPA on board.
So, multiply this by an entire federal republic, and you will get many such instances. For those who are advocating “altruistic punishment” of the Democrats for not being left enough, it’s worth remembering who that punishment will be visited upon, and of what it will consist (it’s also worth noting that one prominent voice calling for “altruistic punishment” no longer resides in the United States, and so does not have to live with the consequences of the “altruistic [sic] punishment” she so blithely calls down upon the heads of those of us who do still live in this country).
different clue
@KT Chong,
” I live among Americans, there are a few good people here and there, but they are the minority. I know overall they are a downright rotten people, (sorry, it is true,) and they make up the majority. They do not even recognize or even realize they themselves are a problem, so there is no way to even start fixing it. ”
And yet, you continue to live among us by your own free conscious choice.
Curious.
( But it is true that most Americans do not even know that most Israelis do not even look white. Considering that most Israelis are descended from North African and Southwest Asian Jews who moved to Israel for whatever the reason starting in the 1950s, most Israeli Jews would look like whatever North Africans and Southwest Asian look like. If majority-Americans knew that, would majority-American opinion change? I don’t know.)
different clue
Well, I agree with Swamp Yankee too. I like his and PLG’s and somecomputerguy’s arguments, as well as my own. Arguments to the contrary from the “left” strike me as so much Leftanon preening.
I went to the early polls yesterday and I voted blue no matter who. If that makes somebody mad, then that makes me happy.
Ian Welsh
I’d say national character exists just as does generation character. It’s just an attractor, it’s not destiny, many people avoid it. Being German in WWII doesn’t automatically make you a bad person, but….
But ask the question a different way. Are the majority of Israelis bad people?
Bear in mind that over 90% think that either the appropriate amount of force is being used in Gaza OR more force should be used.
I do think you either have to conclude that Americans are bad people as a whole, OR than the US is not functionally a democracy. You can’t have it both ways.
Swamp Yankee
So far as your point goes, Ian — I think my response is two-fold. First, I think good and evil are pretty evenly distributed across nations. Styles of expression tend to vary widely by nation — Montesquieu related the different experience of Italian demonstrativeness and English reserve in watching the opera in both countries — but I think good and evil are distributed in similar proportions among all nations. What brings it out into relief is power.
And no, the U.S. is quite clearly not an actual democracy, though it is far closer to one than say, China or Russia (which also don’t make the same big deal about democracy). It is rather, like 18th c. Britain, a commercial oligarchy that nevertheless has a real constitutional-juridical tradition that is a source for popular liberty, as well as the forms of parliamentary/elective government that are mostly corrupted by commercial influences.
Let me put it this way: I live in a direct democracy, my New England Town. Even that has its problems: apathy — even the young bourgeois couples would much rather go to their children’s soccer game than go to a pretty-dry-unless-you-are- a-politics-nerd Town Meeting on a Saturday in March — is a huge problem; local governments across the US typically struggle to get turnout much above 20%. 10-15% turnout in local elections (Town Meetings are actually parliamentary bodies, not ballot elections; every registered voter is a member of the Town Meeting, the legislative branch of the Town, with power to pass bylaws, amend motions from the floor, call for a vote, etc.) Interestingly, those turnout rates are not so far off from the percentage of the UK population that could vote in parliamentary elections in the House of Commons prior to the First Great Reform Bill of 1832.
But this direct democracy is a noticeably different experience than either my State government, which is pretty good, or the US government, which is not pretty good, but dysfunctional. The amount of self-determination in my Town is immense, and it’s a difference not in degree, but in kind.
Swamp Yankee
I do want to note in relation to the above: I think Stein and West votes are defensible at every level. I don’t think a vote for Trump is — particularly from a left and/or republican with a small ‘r’ perspective.
mago
People are people with the same mental and emotional obscurations and negative emotions: passion, aggression and ignorance.
Culture, skin color, age, and gender are conditioning factors of course. Much can be and has been said about identity and so forth.
It’s rich that one commenter here who blasted me about some observations put forth concerning a certain Asian culture—no matter how nuanced, conditional and subtle those observations—blatantly condemns an entire race, even if I agree with him by and large about the whities.
Happy Day of the Dead, All Saints or Souls Day. Call it what you will.
Winter’s coming no matter what you or I think or believe or how we vote or don’t.
Stay warm.
Purple Library Guy
Soredemos said that project 2025 is “like QAnon for Liberals.”
Really.
OK, so let’s define our terms. Since Soredemos is claiming Trump and the alt-right’s fascism is a mirage, presumably what he means is that project 2025 is just as unreal as the conspiracy theories of QAnon.
So, a plan which was leaked in its entirety, which even the Republicans, including Trump, don’t deny is real, which we know the authors of. A plan which was devised by one of the most central, established think tanks on the hard right. A plan whose authors include numerous senior Trump staffers, whose foreword was written by J.D. Vance, HIS VICE-PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE. A plan which involved years of paid effort. A plan that got buy-in from many right wing organizations. And again, lest we forget, a plan so thoroughly established as real that the Republicans don’t even try to pretend otherwise, although some who had involvement have since tried to dissociate themselves from it.
This, by Soredemos, is “like” QAnon making up stories about top Democrats stealing children to use their blood to become immortal.
(Imagine Jon Stewart here doing that “beat” of silent incredulity)
I think Soredemos is having a little difficulty distinguishing reality from fantasy. Here’s a hint: What you should think is real is not “Things that feel reasonable to me” it is “Things for which there is clear evidence that they are real”. Just because you think the idea of Republicans being all fascist is a lurid idea, does not mean that when they publish a long paper about how fascist they plan to be, it’s OK to pretend it never happened, let alone mock people who are facing reality.
Soredemos
@Purple Library Guy
Here’s reality: genocide abroad, continued neoliberal enshitificqtion at home. The ‘choice’ is between different flavors and speeds of each. I’m completely unphased by fearmongering about how, for real this time, the GOP are going to bring tyranny and fascism and destroy all our institutions and way of life and blah, blah, blah, when those have already been destroyed. This country is already a hellscape.
I don’t vote for child murder. Go ahead and do it if you want, and rationalize it however you need to.
different clue
@Purple Library Guy,
Project 2025 is the Republican Plan for their sought-for Bonfire of the Residual Governance Capabilities. It is part of the reason why I voted Blue no matter Who this time around.
Since both candidates promise the same amount of more Gaza genocide, and since no Third Party candidate will get enough votes to prevent either brand name candidate from becoming President; the actual choice I am left with is genocide WITH a side order of Project 2025 or genocide withOUT a side order of Project 2025.
different clue
I don’t know if we can believe Elon Musk about anything, but if what he says about the Democrats wanting to “destroy” him if they get elected, then he has offered a possible reason to vote for the Democrats . . . Harris and etc.
Well, just because Elon said it, that doesn’t make it true. But Elon did say it. Here is the link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/clevercomebacks/comments/1ghhgax/cant_spell_elon_musk_without_a_fat_l/
different clue
Here’s my little prediction.
We won’t know for at least a week who “got elected” President. There will be so much lawfare in so many directions that we may not even know who can get itself “got elected” by Inauguration Day. That would be an interesting civic challenge. Inauguration Day with no agreed-upon winner to Inaugurate.