Well? Go on over, and see what you think, where does Obama rank in terms of worst presidents ever? I mean, he didn’t/hasn’t caused a civil war, so he’s probably not in first place. But…
Also a detailed explanation of how the debt limit is raised, and a good list of the worst things Obama has done. (I was going to say mistakes, but he didn’t do them by mistake.)
jcapan
Best/worst isn’t the rubric that intrigues me. But the colossal missed opportunities to effect real change, to kick former paradigms on their arse, that nags at me. Sept. 2001 and Jan. 2009–just in the last decade America has had two such opportunities. Doubtful that we’ll have another in time to avert catastrophe. And even if one does present itself, again we’ll have men like Obushama in charge, men who have been groomed their entire lives to hew to the status quo, to trust in our failed institutions, defined by corporate values as they are.
David Kowalski
Obama has taken the country backwards and is pushing to eliminate most of the gains of the 20th century. Buchanan was awful but was mainly trying to maintain the status quo. Hoover knew better but felt shackled by traditional ways of doing things. W never got too close to wrecking Social Security and Medicare.
Obama has even destroyed much of the Democratic Party and neutered any criticism from the left simply by phony charges of racism. He’s the worst although Buchanan gives him a run for the money.
Bruce Wilder
Stirling Newberry, at his best, can be so startlingly clear. The first thing to jump out at me was his simple epigrammatic summary of ideal policy in response to the economic crisis: the job of policy is to recover and restructure.
How many times have I seen our neo-liberals debating with their libertarian-conservative counterparts about whether unemployment is cyclical “or” structural? As if, it is a matter of “or”, and not both, or one after the other. When our professional partisan pundits make themselves, and “us”, stupid, debating their false dichotomies, it is no wonder that so many cannot get a clear view of our leaders or their performance.
StewartM
Bruce Wilder:
My return question to them is “Is unemployment *even necessary*?
Why not a permanent WPA?
(Oh, the shudders…)
-StewartM
Notorious P.A.T.
He makes a pretty strong case. Let’s face it: Buchanan wasn’t solely responsible for the Civil War, so the ceiling for worst one-term president is lower than many people think.
The more we see from Obama, the more mendacious and harmful he is revealed to be. I just saw Senator Luis Gutierrez on tv talking about Obama’s full-bore prosecution and deportation of illegal immigrants, even those who have families with children here in this country. Obama doesn’t have to behave so destructively but he wants to and so he does, with weak insistences that he can’t do anything because Congress won’t pass laws specifically mandating he do what his supporters want him to do. Meanwhile he fights tooth and nail, with every fiber of his being and every tool in his arsenal, to get a debt ceiling deal that will cut Social Security and Medicare. He pressures Congressmen, he holds press conferences, he calls on the public, he shops around for legal advice that suits his ear. He campaigns–hard–for what he wants, but throws up his hands in mock defeat when his supporters who put him in office ask him to do otherwise. Just when I think I can’t get more sick of him than I already am, I’m proven wrong.
Worst ever? He’s certainly in contention, which is a crime against the polity.
Ed
If Stirling is proved correct, it will be because of the debt ceiling crisis getting out of hand.
Increase concentration of wealth? That pretty much covers all of them since Reagan. Do nothing president? There are quite a few, Stirling names several. Inadequate in a crisis? Buchanan and Hoover are still the gold standard. However, creating a default and a financial panic through chintzy political maneuvering is unique. Even then, he still probably isn’t as bad as Wilson.
StewartM
I still rank Reagan as the “worst” of all 20th century presidents, because Reagan was a transformative president. Reagan either started the ball rolling on all the problems we have today or if they pre-existed, exacerbated them mightily. More to the point, Reagan defined a political landscape that ensured that what he did would only be furthered, not rolled back.
Reagan gave the Republican Party their SOP for winning elections: nominate the likeable useful idiot, someone who could convince many Americans he’s really for them because he truly believes it himself, and thus comes across as genuine. But that’s because he’s too stupid to have any good grasp of his policy effects. No Reagan, and the Right would have been kicked out of power in 1984 (even then Reagan wasn’t terribly popular much of his first term) and US history would have been different, and better.
After that, Bush II. Clinton didn’t roll back Reagan, and continued and even enhanced the neoliberal agenda, but at least the Clinton era saw a modest recovery for the middle- and lower-class people and put the government’s fiscal house in order. Bush was an economic disaster on almost all conceivable fronts. Obama’s crime is largely continue and enhance Bush’s policies.
I don’t see any good end to this. Obama’s discrediting “liberalism” by being portrayed as a “liberal” in the media and setting the stage for President Teabagger in 2012. Ian has predicted this, and predicted that there *might* be a chance for recovery/reform in 2016 because President Teabagger’s policies will make things worse and they might be therefore out in a year, though the US will be in terrible straits by that time.
But I have my doubts. The Teabaggers already are reminding me of the 1920s and 30s fascists, and like them, their conservative handlers who propelled them to power are finding them not easily controlled. Already the Republicans in many states are rolling back voting rights. As their policies worsen things, and more voters turn against them, what’s to stop them from responding by simply continuing to disenfranchise more and more voters by hook or by crook to continue to win elections? I can imagine that happening.
That is Obama’s greatest claim to “worst”–that he had the best, and possibly the last, chance to avoid disaster. Despite his being smarter than Bush (though terribly conventional in his smarts) and far more eloquent his idea of a “transformative” isn’t at all what the people who voted for him wanted.
StewartM
sunsin
When the present comedy in the United States Congress ends in a Republican civil war and Obama romps to an almost unopposed win in 2012, I wonder if any of you will have the grace to say you were wrong.
Somehow I doubt it. You projected a whole raft of fantasies onto Obama, when the man has always been clear about who he was and what he was doing, and now you lash out spitefully when he refuses to live up to your dreames. “Worst president in U.S. history”? Let’s wait a bit and see how many of you start calling him a Hitler and/or a Stalin, just like the teabaggers. Your declared ideals may be more commendable, but your relationship to reality is just as tenuous as theirs.
Celsius 233
Is it really germane who’s the worst president? History can be argued until the cows disappear.
The here and now isn’t even well understood and that’s what’s driving this train over the cliff.
If the citizens of the U.S. don’t get a handle on today; tomorrow won’t mean diddly squat and the past? Well, does one really give a shit?
Bruce Wilder
It is just a rhetorical frame, for reminding people that policy is important, because policy has consequences. I think Stirling Newberry does an excellent job of enumerating consequential Obama policies, and thereby holding Obama accountable. The rhetorical frame reminds us of other Presidents, who have damaged the country with their leadership and policy, and helps take us out of the here-and-now of petty partisan competition. It reminds us, contra sunsin, that the petty issues of partisan competition, style and resentment, are far less important than policy and its consequences.
Lots of people, right now, support Obama mechanistically, because he’s “the” Democrat and “what’s the alternative? the Republicans are worse”. The “here and now” is a manufactured drama, where the Republican Right are into the Deep Crazy. That the Republican Right has been systematically and successfully pursuing a program of pro-plutocratic institutional reform for 30 years is lost behind Chris Matthews rolling his eyes at Michelle Bachmann’s latest stupid bon mot. A little, grounded perspective in policy and its consequences does reduce the confusion, even if it doesn’t relieve the hopelessness.
duck-billed placelot
@sunsin – Are you saying that Obama winning a second term would mean that he….wasn’t a bad president? Obama winning another term would be catastrophic. A Republican president will be terrible, but it would give us a chance in 2016 for a non-plutocratic, assassinating candidate. After four more years of Obama (and four more years of depression and war), 2016 will go to anyone who’s not on the team of that Socialist Marxist Obama. Not to mention the damage he’d do in the intervening four years.
Z
In regards to the essay:
1. obama was pushing the budget cut deal with boehner even before wall street sent out one of their pet rating agencies …the s & p in this case … to start barking. A matter of fact, obama is the one that started bandying about the $4T figure; not the s & p. (As an aside, that’s why wall street has been so quiet during this whole contrived crisis: they know that THEIR congress will increase the debt limit no matter what and, again, they sent out THEIR s & p to do their dirty work)..
2. Solely laying it on the republicans for creating this debt ceiling drama is wrong becoz obama could have gotten this debt ceiling increase way back when he had a democratic dominated lame duck congress, but made no effort to do so, knowingly … and intentionally … walking straight into this situation. It was no secret that this showdown was coming up way back when he caved on the bush tax cuts last December. obama wanted this situation just as much, if not more, than the republicans …. and he’s been the biggest driver in promoting this shock doctrine aspect of this “crisis”. The republicans didn’t set this fight up, obama and the republicans were … and are … eager dance partners. They’ve been eying each other up across the bar since way back before Christmas … if not before.
Funny that the s & p didn’t threaten to downgrade u.s. treasury debt back in December when discussion of extending the bush tax cuts was going on between obama and the republicans. That $4T figure would have been covered simply by allowing the bush tax cuts to expire.
Z
Morocco Bama
That the Republican Right has been systematically and successfully pursuing a program of pro-plutocratic institutional reform for 30 years is lost behind Chris Matthews rolling his eyes at Michelle Bachmann’s latest stupid bon mot. A little, grounded perspective in policy and its consequences does reduce the confusion, even if it doesn’t relieve the hopelessness.
Yes, Bruce, but once you understand the mechanism, obsessive discussion and analysis and of the minutiae becomes what I can only describe as an addiction. Like I said on the other thread, I know people, and they’re not a minority, who spend their entire lives analyzing the absurd, and largely valueless, minutiae of the greatest Bread & Circus offering ever concocted, Professional Sports. It’s a very close-fitting metaphor. Political hacks, Politico as an example, are glued to the jockeying, in fact, it’s the reason for its existence as an entity. What on earth would it do without the feigned drama? The Shock! The latest Scandal!
We know that the U.S. Government is owned by the Corporations, lock, stock and barrel, and that any legislation that has any impact on the profits of the Plutocratic Shareholders of the Corporations, the 1%, will be, and is, determined by said Corporations with their vested interests in mind. I have made the argument that a system that has allowed this to happen is a flawed system, so the idea of reform is not only too little, too late, but it’s also futile. Another system must be found and implemented, and in order to do that, yes, we must understand the current system in order not to repeat the same mistakes, however, we must also be willing to step outside the box and concede that just because something was before, and has always been since the manifestation of Civilization, does not mean it should be now, or always will be. When I hear otherwise intelligent people put fundamentalist restrictions on creative thought like this, it makes me want to scream. Ironically, many of these otherwise intelligent individuals have eschewed the nonsense of traditional religion, but they appear to not have lost religion, meaning they have merely replaced one set of inflexible convictions with another. God for Economics of Empire, in its many forms.
Considering the above, I consider the exercise of ranking Presidents to be the epitome of inanity. It draws people back to the now archaic notion that the President is somehow running the show, when in fact, the position is now purely symbolic and ceremonial. That’s not to say that the Executive Branch doesn’t have, and doesn’t wield, significant power. It does, but the President himself/herself, as an individual, is meaningless in that equation other than as a symbolic illusion. To rank Presidents as better or worse, is to give the illusion legitimacy, and IMHO, that’s regressive, entrapping thinking.
Formerly T-Bear
With Obama, don’t know about worst, but would settle for personally most corrupt. Even Ulysses Grant had personal integrity even though the people he trusted for his administration were corrupted. His predecessor Andrew Johnson was overwhelmed by the radical republicans in congress bent on political revenge on the defeated southern states whilst he was attempting to fulfill Lincoln’s policies (sorry, them’s the history I was taught and recall, if your history is different, keep your historical opinions to yourself, I for one am not interested in hearing revisionist trash). Some empathy too can be generated for Buchanan as his administration contended with irreconcilable political positions on the slavery issue. With Obama, no grounds exist for misunderstanding or lack of knowledge, the ability to comprehend, or use information. Clearly the person has chosen to disregard facts in order to attain his direction, perfidiously claiming policies which he has a priori decided against. The President of the United States, Barack Obama, is an accredited Harvard-educated pathological LIAR. Not one word issuing from that man’s lips must be taken as being other than deceitful; do so at your own risk; maybe worst could work as well after-all.
Lisa Simeone
“I will promise you this, that if we have not gotten our troops out by the time I am president, it is the first thing I will do. I will get our troops home. We will bring an end to this war. You can take that to the bank.”
-Barack Obama, Oct 27, 2007
Jay
I think Obama actually did make a mistake with the debt ceiling issue. Manufacturing the crisis was his plan all along… but he expected to be able to push through his “grand bargain” – selling himself as Responsible Adult to moderates, and using the GOP for cover to cut benefits. He misjudged just how intransigent the GOP is that they would turn down their dream legislation.
Now he’s back on his toes – all he wants to do is make the issue go away, an issue which he could’ve made go away a long time ago. He definitely botched it on this one.
Morocco Bama
Now he’s back on his toes – all he wants to do is make the issue go away, an issue which he could’ve made go away a long time ago.
Bullshit, Bullshit, Bullshit!!!! More apologist crap. They’re all playing for the same Team…..and you’re not on it. They wear different uniforms (i.e. the empty rhetoric that issues forth from their filthy mouths) in order to obfuscate their shared loyalty to the sanctity of the One Percenters.
BDBlue
Re Lisa’s Obama quote, I maintain that probably the truest thing Bill Clinton has ever said was that Obama’s anti-war stance was a “fairy tale”.
StewartM
Formerly T-Bear:
Then you learned the pro-southern perspective of Reconstruction. You learned the same one I learned. It’s largely inaccurate.
“Revisionism” in history happens for the same reason “revisionism” happens in other disciplines–there’s new data uncovered, a new technique invented, or a new perspective employed. “Revisionism” in history need not be some dirty word.
The history I was also taught gave me a map of colonial North America divided up into the English colonies, New France, and New Spain. That map was far more a fiction than the truth–there was not an iota of information about the people actually living in most of those places, the Native American peoples. I rather suspect if you had gone to West Tennessee and talked to a Chickasaw and asked him “How you like living in New France now?” he’d look at you a bit funny. He might have never seen a Frenchman and, although buried in the very heart of New France, the Chickasaw were allies with the English.
The history I was taught also had its fair share of the stories of Very Important Dead White Guys and wars too, and was short on economic analysis, social history, scientific and technological history, and other stuff. Until computers were common, there wasn’t the ability to crunch lots of numbers on, say, the prices of livestock in Moravia in the 15th century. The Soviet archives coming open have allowed people like David Glantz to write books on the WWII Eastern front from the Soviet point of view instead of the memoirs of defeated Nazis and German military records.
In short–the vast majority of historical revisionism is good. And yes, while there are the popular revisionist histories put out which are nakedly politically motivated (aka Jonah Goldberg’s Liberal Fascism), these are nearly always not the works of historians. No expert of fascism, such as a Robert Paxton, thinks of Liberal Fascism as anything more than a waste of good wood pulp.
-StewartM
-StewartM
Morocco Bama
Sweet Mother of Jesus, politicians lie? Seriously? Politicians don’t lie. Thems the history I was taught. Remember Washington and the Cherry Tree and Honest Abe? Here’s some Honest Abe for ya:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/8319858/Abraham-Lincoln-wanted-to-deport-slaves-to-new-colonies.html
http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n5p-4_Morgan.html
Formerly T-Bear
@ Stewart M
You are probably a dear boy and your mother loved you very much. I don’t have the faintest clue what you are on about. Please don’t assume your experience and education equates to what mine was, nor were your instructors of the same calibre. If you insist they were, you are a fool, please continue with your opinions, and prove it.
ks
“(sorry, them’s the history I was taught and recall, if your history is different, keep your historical opinions to yourself, I for one am not interested in hearing revisionist trash).”
Heh. It would have been more honest and accurate if you said you were going to put your fingers in your ears and say “lalalalala..I can’t hear you…” rather than enaging in obnoxious and pompous, though amusing, preening.
Morocco Bama
rather than enaging in obnoxious and pompous, though amusing, preening.
I think one of these is in order:
http://roflrazzi.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/celebrity-pictures-dug-licking-balls.jpg
jcapan
“Please don’t assume your experience and education equates to what mine was, nor were your instructors of the same calibre.”
Which begs the questions T, do you have friends?
Ian Welsh
Please keep the ad-homs down.
Morocco Bama
Please don’t assume your experience and education equates to what mine was, nor were your instructors of the same calibre.
Oh yeah!! No way, man!! I’m pretty sure you didn’t have the privilege of learning under the tutelage of Sister Eustace. She taught me many valuable skills, not the least of which was how to pray the rosary and spit at the same time. It’s sounds easy, until you try it. It takes many months of practice and perseverance, and only someone with the credentials and caliber of Sister Eustace could help you master it in such a short time frame. She was so skilled, she could do it blindfolded….and in her sleep, although I never witnessed the sleeping part….I swear. May dear Sister Eustace rest in peace…..she was a Saint….frothy, yes, but a Saint nonetheless, and she will be remembered even if she never remembered me. Sure, I may not have much occasion to pray the rosary and spit any longer, and that’s a shame….I blame it on this God Damned Internet thingy, but it’s like riding a bike, once you learn the art, you pick it up again just like….THAT (MB is snapping his fingers).
stevo67
Obama as Worst. President. Ever.? To be honest, I think Shrub worked too hard for that title to lose it in 2 1/2 short years.
How about… Worse. Than. Bush.
StewartM
Formerly T-Bear:
I have no idea what your experience and education are. I do know contending that Andrew Johnson was merely continuing the same Reconstruction policies Lincoln would have implemented is, to put it mildly, not at all the slam-dunk “fact” that you say you were taught it was.
For one thing, I for one doubt Lincoln would have stood idly in 1865 by when, under Johnson’s readmission plan, some ex-Confederate states failed to repudiate their Confederate debt, or repealed rather than declared null and void their articles of secession (by doing so, continuing in essence to maintain that secession was legal and “we can pull this trick again anytime we want”). Lincoln’s position was always that secession was illegal, that the Confederate states had never legitimately left the union, and that the Confederacy had never legally existed. Johnson overlooked all this and approved these readmissions; all the ex-Confederates had to do in his eyes was to accept the 13th amendment and they should be welcomed back with full rights.
This may have been Johnson’s great mistake, and a mistake many historians believe Lincoln would not have made. This political equivalent of a Bronx cheer given by ex-Confederate governments towards the rest of the country flew against the whole reason why the North fought the war, and inflamed Northern opinion. Moreover, the newly-passed 13th amendment might mean that slaves might no longer count as a mere 3/5th of a person, but a full person, for Congressional apportionment. Since the ex-Confederate states were busy enacting new “Black Codes”, placing the newly freed slaves into a status of slavery-in-all-but name, this effectively meant that in the reconstructed Union the ex-Confederate states would have *more* representation than before*. The moral question of black voting rights aside, this mean that white Southerners would have been effectively granted greater representation and a greater voice than white Northerners and Westerners in Washington, DC. It meant that the South would be in essence politically *rewarded* for having tried to secede! The return of many ex-Confederate officials to take Congressional seats in the 1866 Congress didn’t help matters any.
In short, Johnson’s reconstruction plan appeared to reward the South and the very politicians who had championed secession with more political clout. The North and the “Radicals” were not so much motivated by some blind desire to punish the South, as it was alarmed and angered to see the white South unrepentant, see it claiming that secession was still legally valid, and angered to see it being rewarded with more political power. Their anger and alarm is perfectly understandable and was justified. Johnson’s problems with the Radicals began with this.
Many historians believe Lincoln, though he was a for a quick readmission and a return to normalcy, would not have stood for this and would not have been as politically tone-deaf to Northern opinion as Johnson. Johnson was not only politically tone-deaf, but (like Bush II) inflexible and obdurate. Not only that, he then not only refused to enforce Congressional reconstruction and openly encouraged Southern resistance to it! Some historians think it was for this reason, far more than the Tenure of Office Act, that Johnson really did deserve to be impeached and removed from office.
Did they teach you any of this in school? I confess that in the lower grades I was taught the same thing as you were. Hence my comments.
US Civil War historiography is an interesting subject in its own right. The story has changed a number of times, due to new evidence, new methodologies, and new perspectives. The version I learned, and it seems you learned too, is a modified version that was widely preached during the Progressive Era (think: D. W. Griffith) to about 1960. This version glossed over the facts I cited above (and others), played up the plight of white southerners, demonized Radical Reconstructionists such as Thaddeus Stevens as mean, small-minded, men, and—as a sop to Northern sensibilities—bewailed the death of Lincoln as someone who might have been able to prevent the harsh, unfair, treatment of the white South. A variant of this theme, more popular in the 1930s and influenced by the apparent senselessness and futility of WWI, portrayed the Civil War as likewise a senseless and futile outcome and played up the role of pro-Southern Northerners like Stephen A. Douglas in trying to prevent this national tragedy.
StewartM
Morocco Bama
This may have been Johnson’s great mistake, and a mistake many historians believe Lincoln would not have made.
I think it’s clear from the links I provided that Lincoln would have found a way to export the ex-slaves per the links I provided. Afterall, in his own words, Blacks and Whites could not live together because Whites were superior to Blacks. Obviously, he didn’t believe all men were created equal….only all White men were created equal.
groo
I second Morocco Bama.
Any President operates in his environment.
So the question somehow resembles one like
“what is the the worst fish swimmingin the sea?”.
When the sea is contaminated, acidified, basically uninhabitable by any healthy fish,
what can you expect?
I know, it is not quite so, and we are quickly entering the nature-nurture debate, or the autonomous versus collective.
Reflecting a bit, acknowledging that ‘we’ are not pure and simple fish, whose purpose is exactly being themselves –the purpose of the fish is being a fish–,
then we hopefully can be aware that ‘we’ , or some tiny subset of ‘us’ is acidifying the ocean.
So I would turn the question around and ask:
Has there ever been a worse environment for a president than now?
Then one hopefully recognizes, that ‘poor/bad’ Obama definitely could have done better, but any healthy fish needs a healthy surrounding.
You know what I mean, because, well, yes, You are intelligent, and the biotope You/I are swimming in is not yet so contaminated , that we lack the oxygen, which is needed for some -well- clear thinking.
Obama is deprived of oxygen, so to say. Maybe starting from his Chicago days.
Here the metaphor ends, and one is thrown back to his own thinking.
Changing the biotope of our own self-poisoning design.
Amen.
Tom Hickey
W still gets my vote for worst. O is not even close to catching him.
StewartM
Morocco Bama:
StewartM
Sorry, delete the previous comment.
Here it is formatted correctly:
The gradual abolition of slavery followed by black emigration was always Henry Clay’s pet project (he was the president of the American Colonization Society). Lincoln always admired Clay and referred to himself as “a Clay man” early in his political career. Some abolitionists were also advocates for emigration early on.
It is true that Lincoln kept pressing to explore emigration as a “solution” to America’s race problem as president. He didn’t get very far, and some historians think his continued efforts to be a sop to racism in the North to counter the backlash he got for the Emancipation Proclamation (even some abolitionists likewise used racist arguments in their advocacy, saying that abolition would keep blacks “down there” and not force them to run “up here” to gain freedom) . It must be remembered that while Lincoln continued to make noises about emigration and colonization, he also as early as 1854 recognized the enormous practical difficulties of the emigration “solution”. He was resisted by African-American leaders in the North, who pointed out that 180,000 African-Americans were fighting for the North, that African-Americans weren’t the cause of America’s race “problem”, and if anyone should be forced to emigrate it should be treasonous white slaveowners. That argument was rather hard to refute. Abolitionists too by Lincoln’s presidency had largely abandoned emigration schemes, so emigration had little support from “the left” back then.
To me, the cinching point that Lincoln was turning away from emigration and colonization schemes towards a measure of African-American citizenship was his last public speech on April 11th, 1865, where he cautiously advocated African-American voting rights. John Wilkes Booth was in the crowd listening, and his reaction was to it was:
“That means nigger citizenship. By God, I’ll put him through. That is the last speech he will ever give”.
Booth sure thought that Lincoln was moving towards a measure of equality. It doesn’t make sense to start advocating suffrage rights to people who you want to encourage to leave.
StewartM
Morocco Bama
Stewart, per my link:
So, we have Lincoln, in late Autumn of 1864, in a private correspondence, which was much later made public, still pushing for exportation of the ex-slaves when it was, at least at that time, economically untenable, and yet, as you have mentioned, we have him just several months later, in a public speech, “cautiously advocating” voting rights for Blacks and, presumably, accepting a future in which they are U.S. Citizens. We have a contradiction, and suffice it to say, I’m not one to believe he changed his mind, or feelings, in a few short months, or perhaps we are talking about the “Public” man, or a better term would be the Politically Expedient man, and the “Private” man. Sometimes, if we were to use Venn Diagrams for illustrative purposed, the two overlap, but other times they are quite divergent. The “Politically Expedient” man must, and will, and does, lie on occasion, some more than others, as a matter of practicality, but ultimately it is a betrayal of his inner-most, “Private” self, and his true convictions, and a shielding of it from the light of “Public” day.
Either way, it’s clear that Lincoln was not the Saint he’s been made out to be, and the character that’s offered to the majority of U.S. Citizens via standard educational history texts, is far from Lincoln’s true character. That was my point, and it’s why I used T-Bear’s words in my own way. Let’s talk about “thems history” most dolts in the U.S. were taught, not the special reserve history bequeathed to T-Bear by the Greek Gods.
groo
turning the question around:
“who was the ‘best’ president?”
Then there is a quite absurd debate, whether the ‘best’ could not have been even better.
Which reminds me of Kant, who endorsed the inferiority of the blacks, but on the other hand was one of the premier thinkers of the enlightenment.
Same with the founding fathers and the early presidents.
Jefferson the slaveholder etc.
As Morocco Bama rightly pointed (me) to Michael Parentis treatment of the matter.
After watching Parenti, I am not totally convinced that the project of the founding fathers was purely elitist .
It HAD elitist components, but was not purely elitist in the contemporary sense.
They simply did not know better, and only after decades of struggle, the core of the matter was exposed.
Which led to the civil war etc.
What one learns from that is, that ONLY in times of big challenge epic leaders of great stature can flourish.
In latter times presidents seem to have learned:
They can only style themselves as ‘big’, when the times are tough.
So they eventually create those tough times, just to make them look bigger.
Disaster-capitalism and other methods.
Obama ist not one of those.
He is – in all probability- born/thrown into the situation, and fails miserably, for some hidden reasons, which are embedded in the ‘power-structure’.
At least this is my impression.
I do not want to defend Obama, but blaming him alone would grossly miss the point.
Referring back to Jefferson, Lincoln, FDR as GREAT Presidents reveals THEIR weak spots, which they definitely had in the rear view.
Voting for the ‘best’ among the lot would miss the point.
American passion for misconceived numberings and rankings.
Take Your medicine.
The problem I see with the latter day Presidents, from Reagan on laterwards is, that presidential power continually diminished , and the structural elements continually increased, may this be financing elections or the various lobbies.
(Note: it must not necessarily be a bad thing to limit presidential power, but if some congress/senate-crazies are in the drivers seat, it is relevant, that it is not, but this is a very fragile construct, and finally a gamble, which means that the electoral process for president somehow cancels out the illnesses of the election of congressmen and senators. This is a defunct statistical argument: that evil+evil somehow cancel out, which obviously they do not.)
So how can anybody ask whether ‘Obama is the worst’?
It is the system, stupid.
Elect Jesus, and he would be murdered.
The phantasy is, that somehow the vote puts in position a president, who represents the electorate
So whats the point?
You can vote as you will. The Candidate serves a lot of masters, and the voter is amongst the last to be served.
You know it . I know it.
So why we argueing on that in the first place?
Bernard
Reagan was the first and best PR man for the Elites, obviously an personable idiot well versed to dumb down the country and manipulate the conversation. the first to start the con on a national level. the smooth charlatan. who first acted in movies for companies and now acted as President/1st CEO of the new Corporate run America.
Reagan was evil, but that’s just my opinion, complicit in the laying the foundation for the Ponzi scheme the Republicans and Democrats created to sell America to the Corporations.
St. Ronnie is the patron saint of the Elites/Wrecking crew that started to dismantle the fabric of American society. Laid the seeds of destruction, which enabled Bush1/2/Obama/Clinton to do their own dirty work. His “Government is the Problem” began what we see today. the success St. Ronnie symbolizes is what leads Obama to want to be like him. or Reagan’s ability to “sell” the Corporate takeover was exceptional and easy to see through. knowing the idiot natures of Americans, St. Ronnie’s task was as easy as pie.
Find an “other” to demonize, this time the Federal Government, and attack . Republicans have had a brilliant and completely successful strategy of destroying Government so they could take it over for Business.
Problem is when you kill the Golden Goose/Government, you run out of eggs. As we will soon see. But that’s not their concern. The goal was to take all America’s money. that’s almost done. Besides, there are other countries to loot after America is taken down.
Obama is just emulating his hero. I doubt Obama could be as good as Reagan, Obama just has to reap what Reagan has sown. Obama’s mistakes will be what Obama considers as his failure to outdo Reagan. Reagan is his model.
Z
I don’t agree with the liberal blame game on everything ronald reagan. krugman does this shit all the time. reagan didn’t put hypnotic spells on all the presidents that followed him … they served corporate amerika for their own … very often selfish … reasons. And, as far as I know, he also didn’t change the campaign laws to make it easier to bribe and corrupt those politicians.
reagan wouldn’t even get near the current republican ticket … nor the democratic ticket … he’d be a huckabee wannabe … becoz he wasn’t subservient ENOUGH to corporate amerika as the current band of head jackasses are in BOTH parties. Corporate amerika wouldn’t fund him becoz they wouldn’t get as much from him as they do from their current errand boys.
ronald reagan did a lot of things that damaged this country … that is true. Appointing alan greenspan might be at the very top of them. But ronald reagan raised taxes on ge … who he used to draw a paycheck from … becoz he felt that they weren’t paying enough taxes. ronald reagan raised income taxes … several times … when tax revenue didn’t meet his projections. ronald reagan left beirut with his tail between his legs rather than place American soldiers in any more danger … he took the blame, he swallowed his pride, he greeted the families of the dead ones, he took their deserved shit, and he didn’t allow his own personal ego to put others in further danger. Can you imagine any of these current mfers doing any of that? I don’t. And it certainly ain’t ronald reagan’s … who has been out of office for over 20 years and is currently dead … fault that they don’t.
Z
Bernard
the perfect actor. Reagan. Reagan legitimized the attacks that followed. selling America out would not have been possible if the ground work has not been done. a good con job makes Reagan’s ulterior motives seem improbable. and Reagan was good. which is why they hired him.
Ask most anyone and they will say “government is the problem.” with all the humble pie and doofus sincerity, Reagan symbolizes, for me at least, the simple easy way to destroy the country from within. Rot from within. i know people who work for the Government and think it has always been the “Problem.” government workers!!! the Rot is systematic.
Maybe some don’t remember the adoration and affection the press held for Reagan. i know Obama does. his emulation of Reagan and the efficiency Reagan used to disembowel the “opposition” with his “there you go again.” non reply.
Reagan was wonderful. the perfect ploy with the manipulating hate filled wife. Watching Reagan build this country up for the Overlords that followed is one of the most “dynamic things i can remember. and all those crooks who worked for him.
the “I can’t remember” line we later saw used by those avoiding any responsibility. Hollywoood actors are the perfect foil for the celebrity focus Americans want.
Negroponte, Oliver North and the whole cast of characters from Reagan’s Reign would later star in the following Republican drama/scam on America. Reagan truly was the high water mark for the deception to follow.
after all, who couldn’t like a man who kept a jar of jelly beans on his desk. the Common Man with the Common touch. what better symbol for the sugar hyped obese, idiot America who stopped Communism from winning. Tear down that wall and all those brilliant marketing ploys.
Business had a winner with Reagan, and Obama hopes to follow in his path. that is quite impossible. Reagan was an “American” Patriot/success story for most of the dumb white folks who voted for him. just the symbol to clusterfock America. Obama is a black Kenya communist alien who is forcing “socialism” on America.
Reagan was perfect for his job, looks like Obama will be too. Perfect to finish off what Reagan started. don’t look behind the curtain, nothing to see here, move on!!!
Morocco Bama
groo, excellent post. I agree with most all of it, and the sentiment. Too bad most aren’t listening and continue to single out the two-bit actors, rather than the structure itself, as is witnessed by the posts between your last and this one.
People love the curtain, rather than what’s behind it.
groo
thanks Morocco Bama,
after reading my own post a day later, I ask myself:
what the hell were you talking about?
Nobody understands this!
Express Yourself more clearly.
But I cannot.
This thought probably probably occurs to all of us at times.
Basically its all the same, what we feel and are trying to express.
Not memes.
This would miss the target, because it is moving.
Chasing the target somehow gives us the hope that we can corner it, where it cannot escape.
Thanks anyway for trying to understand, or intuitively understanding
what I am trying to express.
I am deeply into that, and all the great guys like Jonathan Schwartz, Glenn Greenwald or Numerian over at the Agonist and what have You are just saying the same.
Actually there is a consensus concerning the semantics of all of that, which puzzles me for quite some time.
The other side, so to say, has a fundamental defect, which I call ‘fragmented mind’, along the line of argument of Bob Altemeyer.
This is an epic battle, which, for the straight thinker should be wo easily.
But it is not! The fragmented mind wins hands down over the coherent mind.
Why?
Because the conclusions are at times so dire, that the fragmented mind simply rejects them on grounds of its own survival, temporary as it is.
‘Stupidity’ is shortsightedness along the temporal axis.
A very amazing, simple ‘definition’.
One is MORE stupid if one cannot look further than the LESSER stupid.
So here we are.
A metric of stupidity.
Funny that.
Z
Morocco Bama,
You over-assume stupidity.
You mean the system puts these amoral-immoral bastards in office?! No shit?! WOW!!!! Thanks for the fucking revelation.
Z
StewartM
Z:
Oh, he was subservient enough. If you go back to Reagan’s speeches, you see it all there: SS was a ponzi scheme, Medicare was socialized medicine, unions are evil and should be destroyed–the whole works. The “Reagan was more liberal than current Republicans” shtick is B.S. in my book.
The big difference between Reagan’s presidency and that of a Dubya or a would-be Scott Walker is that Reagan’s was in a more liberal time–like, when they actually *cared* about unemployment. Reagan was more constrained by what he could accomplish, he was just beginning the task of undoing 40 years of the New Deal, after all.
He did not. He raised payroll taxes and gas taxes, you know, the ones only little guys had to pay. And he made sure that those waitresses and bartenders, doubtless among the richest people in America (/snark) paid additional taxes on their tips. The one article of faith that Reagan never compromised on (Obama, oh one who makes “compromise” the preeminent virtue, and who praises Reagan as a saint–are you listening?) was that taxes on rich people should NEVER, EVER, EVER go up but should only go down. Taxes on poor people, by contrast, could skyrocket, they could pay their last friggin’ dime in taxes, but taxes on rich should always go down.
And that’s why he’s forms the bedrock of modern conservatism. Despite their anti-tax screed, that’s what they really believe too. They’re not really anti-tax.
StewartM
StewartM
Morocco Bama:
Yes, Morocco, but one must consider also other specifics. Your “private/public” argument presumes that there would be more pushback from the colonization efforts than there would be from some sort of black citizenship. While the first was doomed by impracticalities, the second was political dynamite for most of the war–and not just in the South, that was still fighting, but in the North as well. To use a crude modern analogy from the health care debate, it’s as if Lincoln were privately advocating Obamacare and publically advocating a national health service and a Medicare-for-all program. The latter is more “dynamite” than the former.
Scholars have known about this a long time, while the document in your link may be new, it’s old news (contrary to what your first link implied). Some scholars like Stephen B. Oates have concluded that Lincoln pursuing colonization was done as political window-dressing, to demonstrate these impracticalities; but I think even if that were not the case, they way the colonization efforts played out one would think that it would have caused Lincoln to conclude that colonization was a fool’s errand. Moreover, by 1865, Lincoln’s “left” at the time had coalesced around some form of black citizenship and voting, so there was little political support for colonization either. It just wasn’t going to happen.
Finally, I’d like to leave an observation of Frederick Douglas about Lincoln. Douglas could be as frustrated as any other “progressive” of the era with Lincoln’s slowness to embrace reform and perceived obtuseness. Douglas however said that Lincoln’s virtue was that when he finally *did* move, it was nearly always in the right direction, and moreover you could count on said move to be permanent (again, unlike Obama). The Emancipation Proclamation, for instance, was not only denounced in the South but in many places in the North; whole Union regiments sent proclamations how they would not fight to free slaves. Yet despite this backlash Lincoln, after having issued it, and seeing the contributions that African-Americans were making to the Union effort, said he would be sooner die than retract a single word of it.
StewartM
Z
Stewart,
First of all, thanks for correcting me about my false claim that reagan raised income taxes … personal income taxes that is, which is what I implied. The larger point that I was trying to make in regards to taxes was that he raised taxes. And those taxes didn’t fall only on the working class either. He did raise CORPORATE income taxes. And payroll taxes and gas taxes don’t only get paid by the little guys though they may fall heavier on them as a percentage of their wealth.
http://articles.cnn.com/2011-05-09/opinion/zelizer.reagan.taxes_1_tax-cuts-tax-increases-support-tax-reform?_s=PM:OPINION
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Equity_and_Fiscal_Responsibility_Act_of_1982
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20030729-503544.html
Again, I can’t imagine any of these current mfers doing any of that … especially the republicans. And I’m also not one to blame ronald reagan for everything that happened after him, like so many liberals do. The politicians that followed him had their own free will, but they sold out of their own volition and for their own reasons … ronald reagan didn’t put them under some kind of trance.
Yes, reagan was president at a more liberal time in history and one could say, as you do, that he would have been just as bad as the current band of corporate hos if he was in this environment, but I disagree based upon some of his other course corrections. For example:
http://moronia.us/front/2011/04/ronald-reagan-raised-corporate-taxes-to-force-tax-dodgers-to-%E2%80%98pay-their-fair-share/
Z
Bruce Wilder
No, Reagan didn’t hypnotize those who followed, but he did set things in motion, which had consequences, which constrained the politics that followed. The politics of changing the rules, of changing the institutions within which people compete and cooperate, is the politics of trying to find ways to tie the hands of those, who follow. Not easy to do, but not impossible either.
This thread has disappointed me. “Lincoln was not the Saint he’s been made out to be . . .” Really, ‘bama? The man won a civil war of vast scope, wrote the Gettysburg Address and his two inaugurals, and freed the slaves, and you are going to quibble over his alleged character defects, based on some manuvering over colonization; why not go over his similar letters on compensated emancipation?
The President of the United States, by design, is a kind of elective King, modeled on a Whiggish mythology of English Kings. The Presidential monarch is a focus of the nation’s politics, a fulcrum on which the evolution of institutions and the meaning of the nation’s politics is levered by hands, alternatively mighty and palsied. A President stands alone and apart, amidst a chaotic sea of contending forces: of ambitious men, competing ideas, and conflicting interests. A President can be the still center of gravity for that chaos, and shape that chaos into coherence, with his leadership, whether it is by means of his eloquence and use of the ye ol’ bully pulpit, deft use of his power of appointment, or his ability to set a political agenda. Making lists of best and worst, is just a way of making a summary judgment of this history of institution-building (or institution-destruction), just as a good judge, writing an opinion in support of a judicial decision, marshals history and facts in proof of justice.
What does a Monarch or President do? What’s his function? He, or she, leads. But, “leads” is a bit ambiguous in its emptiness. “Speaks for the country”, articulating national purposes and committments, is certainly part of the job description. Policymaking — a role the English monarch or American President conspicuously shares with, or alienates to, other institutions, is not just ambiguous, it is confusing. If we focus too short-sightedly on the “policy” of the day, we risk personalizing as some kind of personal preference, the conflicting ideas and interests, which must be reconciled by the functioning of the institution. This unimaginative personalization, in the first stirring of political theory, is how the 16th and 17th century got the curse of absolute monarchy. And, such short-sighted focus on policy minutiae also prevents us from glimpsing the broader outline of the making and unmaking of institutions, and how the great Presidents bind the generation that follows.
The first English kings were warriors, and their success or failure rested, often, on their strategic competence, and even on their charismatic charm as battlefield leaders. That’s no longer a role we expect a national leader to assume, although the Right still glories in the President, as Commander-in-Chief. In Whiggish retrospective, English kings were celebrated in the strength for their promotion of the King’s law, in refining the bureaucracy of chancellery and property law, and in their weakness, for the strengthening of Parliament. While consciously playing the game of thrones, the Kings, often unconsciously and inadvertently, in failure as much as success, channeled the resolution of political conflicts into the development and evolution of institutions.
In this tradition, the best and greatest Presidents are Lincoln, Washington and FDR, while the near-greats might include Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson and Woodrow Wilson and some others from the list of the successful, mayhaps. The destructiveness of their institutional, political and policy legacies makes it difficult for a liberal to decide what to do with Nixon and Reagan. (Trivia alert: the most successful President to be forgotten: James K. Polk.)
“Best and greatest” rests, implicitly, on the contributions these Presidents made to the development of the institutions of democratic government and the sense and coherence of national purpose and identity.
For someone like Newberry, who has a long perspective on institutional politics and economics, Obama’s Presidency must seem a national horror show. That so many of our contemporaries look on complacently, approving of the color of his skin or his Lincoln-like dilatoriness on the fast-moving issues of gay rights, must be a cause of still deeper despair. Certainly, that’s how I feel.
I suppose the truth of the long Nixon-Reagan phase of the dismantling of the New Deal lies not in the personality of Obama, but in the vacuousness of the latter-day liberal and progressive sentiment, which chose him, which preferred symbolism to power, which complained about and jeered at movement conservatism, for 30 years without ever doing the hard work of criticizing it or opposing it.
The institutions of liberal and progressive politics were attacked by the conservatives systematically and effectively — attacked and destroyed. Most liberals, today, could hardly name them, and many leading liberal voices in the blogosphere would quibble over whether the demise of this one or that one, was important. And, the assault goes on. The conservatives lost little time blaming the financial crisis on Fannie and Freddie; the Peterson anti-Social-Security people, are busy corrupting the nascent New Deal 2.0 organization.
Just to take one example, criticism of journalism profession and the news Media has been a staple theme of the liberal blogosphere, practically since the Daily Howler was still Al Gore’s roommate, but no one, yet, seems to have much of a clue about how to build an alternative institutional structure, which might inform American public opinion. (I guess we’re suppose to discover Al Jazeera and CurrentTV and Amy Goodman in the upper reaches of the cable dial, and leave it at that.) And, attempts to de-legitimize the establishment Media have been unavailing. Murdoch, even with more underwear showing that the last sagger on the street, is, it appears, confident enough to murder his accuser; many liberals still seem to think that the scandals are self-powered.
The central issue for Obama is the economy. (Yes, he is still black, and DADT is on its way to its funeral, but it is still the economy, stupid.) The economic program of the Bush-Bernanke years (which was the same program put into motion by Reagan and Greenspan, but with no more room to reduce nominal interest rates.) ran aground in 2008, but most “liberal” economists were “surprised”, and even many of those, who caught on late in the game (say, 2006 or 2007), had no critique or programme ready to offer as an alternative. In the event, even if they had read the Shock Doctrine and had a glimmer on the political tactics, the economics on the so-called Left was all preservationist reaction, backed by bafflement founded on unassailable ignorance.
I don’t really understand exactly why so many liberals want so much to “psychologize” Obama’s conduct in the Presidency, to try to figure out his personal outlook. (I know that’s no part of Newberry’s agenda.) What matters is what his legitimation and extension of the Bush policy agenda — in more operationally competent hands, which only makes it worse — is doing to the institutions of the political economy. He’s stabilizing an economy, which is going to grind into poverty and debt peonage a very large part of the American population, in a single generation.
He’s just legitimated a clear signal that the U.S. will default on its national debt within the foreseeable future! (I appreciate Stirling Newberry’s detailed explanation of how the debt ceiling is raised, but talk about burying the lead! That the U.S. is on a political path heading toward default is the significance of this partisan fight, which has left all policies for reviving and restructuring the failing U.S. economy off-the-table and out of the discussion. One of the two great political parties is now openly committed not just to public disinvestment and runaway deficit spending in service of eliminating the taxation of the rich; they also want to default.)
Worst President Ever?
Hoover, and maybe even Buchanan to some extent, I can excuse, partially, because the public mind may not have been entirely ready to accept what, in retrospect, we might think they should have done. Buchanan’s pettiness and corrupt conduct did a great deal to win the Presidency for Honest Abe Lincoln, and the politics of a Republican Party, which rejected radical abolition, but still held, as a matter of acknowledged moral principle, the wrong of slavery. Hoover’s abject failures paved the way for FDR’s greatness, by allowing FDR to resist his own cautious and conventional convictions on economics, and to allow others to initiate many projects, under the guise of experiment.
Here’s the thing, though: Lincoln rejected Buchanan’s policy; FDR rejected Hoover’s policy. They did so, because those policies had obviously failed in execution. Whether it was obvious in 1857 or 1929, that those policies would have to fail, . . . well, we could quibble there — such speculation is counterfactual, at best. But, Buchanan had failed and Hoover had failed. That’s factual.
And, George W. Bush had failed, too.
That’s the horror, which is Obama, and the horror, frankly, of majority support for Obama among Democrats to this day. Obama is Bush’s third term.
Z
Bruce Wilder,
I don’t blame ronald reagan for the moral failings of the presidents that followed him. And that was the root cause of a lot of these damaging actions that these presidents took were: moral failings. They had to know that much of what they were effectuating was going to damage the long-term interests of the country and the majority of the people, but they still did it. And for that, I blame them, not ronald reagan.
Z