The 2020 Celebrity Election Will Be Far Crazier than 2016

Winfrey is a good person but she is not a hard person. At the POTUS level, all the important decisions are hard. No forgiveness for letting yourself get suckered by an author, and we need less, not more, Cabinet cronyism.

We need to stop conflating celebrity with charisma, high profiles with actual leadership, and access to a mic with having an authentic voice.

Would we accept Deepak Chopra, Maya Angelou, and Dr. Phil as Secretary of State, Education, and Chief of Staff? For sure they’d be better than the Trump family singers and all their swamp henchmen, but after a dose of POTUS Oprah the pendulum might just swing back again. Not sure what mud would possibly stick to her though. She doesn’t look very Muslim to me.

OT: Has anybody ever seen Michael Wolff and Dr. Evil in the same place at the same time? 🙂

To the post:

Celebs rule.

“Kim Kardashian 2020! Kato Kaelin for Veep! The K’s are OK!”

That ticket/slogan would send Oprah home weeping, in all sad likelihood.

All hail the rise of the alliterati. (The long-awaited Third Partiers.)

In all seriousness, I might vote for skinny Oprah, but I don’t think I could support fat Oprah. Think of the children!

If you read down the comments in Stoller’s tweet, you’ll see him basically admit that she is a joke — another Obama, Biden, Hillary. His high praise for her is the paragon of Havel’s greengrocer.

she’s not a white dude
she’s liberal
she’s flirted with running
she’s a voice for women
she’s famous
Oh, and she’s not Trump.

EYup, that certainly sounds like a winning campaign strategy.

Remind again if you would please what the word is for doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results, faith, or insanity?

We have to stop doing what we are doing. It isn’t working.

2016 was a horrible election, but was oddly liberating once Trump won because maybe people would start to finally see what was happening, they would learn, and things would actually start to change. A 2020 campaign by Oprah Winfrey, especially a successful one, is almost too painful to think about. It would signal that people did learn, only they learned that rather than vote and act for necessary reforms (or even revolution) to safeguard the republic, they should vote for a competing billionaire celebrity.

The neo-aristocracy (h/t Stirling Newberry) will be run by mediagenic celebrities, either billionaires or backed by billionaires, and supported by adoring fans. The prospect that Trump was the beginning of a new trend a not the final dark comedic act of a dying order is chilling.

If you are stuck in a fixed and corrupt duopoly party corporatocracy, anything that disturbs the perceived order is a good thing for regular people.

Even if it does nothing more than shock people into thinking outside their regular boxes.

Something has to make the first crack in the status quo edifice. We have already shown that none of us, nor any of our supposed saviors, could do it.

Instead of hating the guy who shook up the Establishment, smart folks ought to be trying to find the best way to exploit the changes.

That’s just the thing. Trump mentioned those things and yet was full of shit. Trump pulled a con Henry Gondorff would have been jealous of.

I think this is highly dubious, but I’ll let it pass to avoid derailing yet another thread. In any case, those issues are so popular that every politician always had to give lip service to them, but Trump was able to convince voters he would actually act.

How would that formula translate to Oprah? Maybe she adopts enough of Bernie’s platform, but, where Bernie couldn’t, she also corrals the black vote (for obvious reasons). Can she get enough of the white vote in the general, though? Obama won the white vote as the post-racial reconciliation candidate — good luck selling that one again.

I’d go with Lindsey Vonn: good looking, hates Trump, and, given Trump’s got the country going downhill fast, she knows how to win in such a situation.

WRT running celebrities: Dems (on average) are less likely to go for that; Dems are more likely to value the CV vs the number of talk show appearances. Though Al Franken WAS on SNL…….

“can she get enough white votes” – lmao, asked and answered. https://youtu.be/-1sWsn1Q8lk

The two klepto-parties created the vacuum on important issues, that Trump was able to move into and exploit politically.

Tye fault for that lies NOT WITH TRUMP, but rather with the duopoly parties AND the people whom were stupid enough to keep supporting them when it was so clear they were dedicated to selling us out to the corporatocracy.

Jesus, people, get a fucking grip already. You were up to your necks in shit before Trump ever came along.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

Based on their past statements, why would you think Oprah or (especially!!!) Clooney would be any different/better than Booker/Gillibrand/Harris/Biden?

As a couple of people said in my timeline earlier today, Oprah was all about promoting “blame poor people for not thinking positively enough” garbage like “The Secret”.

Yes, I think she probably means well and is probably a nice person. I’m not sure HRC doesn’t mean well, too, all her policies in office notwithstanding.

Yeah, she apparently gave a great speech last night that I missed. I don’t really care. Obama gave a LOT of great speeches. I need to see some evidence she’d actually do a decent job. Haven’t seen this yet.

Most likely, you’d get a slightly more woman-friendly (which isn’t nothing, I just except her actual policies to be ONLY slightly, therefore of minimal reason to get excited about) Obama 2.0. She might (probably) feel more actual compassion for poor people than he did, but then I think Bill Clinton did too, and all his most helpful instincts got rolled (and completely vanished?) pronto, and she has less experience/knowledge than he did going in.

As someone who in the far past briefly worked for/with pols, I’m not against outsiders or celebs running AT ALL, but I’m not supporting people for giving feel-good speeches. Hell, Trump gave some “help the working class” speeches. Speeches mean nothing unless you have some good reason to believe they will translate into at least meaningful ATTEMPTS at action.

Not getting the enthusiasm here AT ALL.

Oprah? Oh my goodness, no. Before she started shilling for Obama I would have thought it was a pretty good idea, but I couldn’t even watch her again after that. On the road with the Obamas in the South, speaking in fake, exaggerated southern accents in front of black crowds. Disgusting.

Of course there are a few articles regarding Oprah at Black Agenda Report. This is an interview of the author of a book on Oprah. “The Age of Oprah: Cultural Icon for the Neoliberal Era”

https://blackagendareport.com/content/age-oprah-cultural-icon-neoliberal-era

One of the good things about Trump’s celebrity was that he’d been around celebrities for decades. Had been on tv and in movies, before he had his own tv show. He wasn’t star struck or trying to be the cool guy hanging out with stars, like Obama. Having constant parties for his Hollywood pals and music moguls. Wanting to be one of them, singing or dancing or whatever nonsense at the podium.

Oprah would be a lot like Obama, it appears. Except that like Trump she already has hobnobbed with celebrities, and has been an actor. That’s about the extent to which I want to think about it at all, lol. I have a even lower opinion of celebrities now than when they were fawning all over Obama in office. So many continue to act like he did great liberal things.

While I did not or would not vote for Trump, I am certainly not apoplectic about him being president. I see how so many of the outraged statements about him actually also applied to Obama, and the screamers about Trump don’t even see that irony, at all. It makes for some good entertainment. There are at least a few laughs to be had in this sad situation.

It’s not the speeches that mislead. It’s the environment these “leaders” physically create. You’ll get more tomatoes by tossing out tomato seeds in Tennessee, than you would giving beautiful speeches to carefully cultivated plants in Antarctica.

Is she a member of, or does she support the policies of the http://www.dsausa.org ?

That’s the question political candidates in the U.S. must be pressed to answer.

The snowflakes are crashing back to earth after their long flying monkey like failed siege of Trump Tower. Beaten and desperate, someone decided what they needed was a somewhat commie Voodoo Queen Oprah to replace the two-time loser Red Queen.

@ Peter

As long as there are no penises involved, we might be able to economize on safe spaces lol.

The neo-liberal girl-fight between Oprah and Kamala would be most entertaining to watch. But I’m not sure Oprah can make the weight cut.

Sanders will get frozen out again, as the Dems adopt a “No penises ever!” platform plank.

I plan to get my breasts enlarged. That’s as far as I’ll go. 🙂

In regard to Oprah’s involvement in governance, here’s all you really need to know: she’s been a big supporter of “The Secret”, a pernicious example of Prosperity Gospel / positive thinking psychobabble / literal magical thinking, which promotes the “Law of Attraction” as a guide to living. One shudders to think of the “experts” she might surround herself with.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/52529.The_Secret

That some are unaware of this fact about her is a sad testament to the power of Public Relations. The perennial popularity of such ideas says a lot about the defects of education and the degraded collective intelligence of the (American) general public. Worst of all, the resultant attitudes seep over into the thinking of people who would never admit to actually believing in such stuff.

I’ll also concur with questioning the dubious proposition that managing to get stinking rich under winner-take-all capitalism implies high competence.

And yet she’d be a damn sight better than Jagoff Joe Biden. Just sayin’…

@realitychecker Endless absurdities, indeed. And they’re not limited to politics. It seems like every aspect of American life anymore has become full of crazy.

@Dan Lynch I’m with you on despising the rich. Judging by our new neighbors they’re from hell, and more cuckoo bananas than you’ll find in any insane asylum. Don’t care about anybody else. And feel they are a separate and superior species, above humans. Psychopathic doesn’t seem to cover it, or psychotic either. There’s no logical description for the kind of chaos they inflict.

The house across the street was bought by a couple with too much money a few years ago and it’s been under reconstruction for over a year and a half. Starting every morning at 6:30 am 7 days a week, until the last few months when they get the occasional weekend off. Hammering, sawing, throwing garbage into large metal bins from the rooftops, so many kinds of noise. Early morning radios playing. The dogs that they bring to work barking and running everywhere they please.

They’ve used our front yard to pile the (unusually heavy) snowfall from their long, circular driveway. Their worker’s trucks use our driveway as their 3rd one to turn their vehicles around. So does the woman at the new house. Sometimes multiple times a day. There can be 12-14 cars and trucks parked along the street at any time, as well as their driveway. People working on “the house.” A rent-a-can right across the road, that people stop their cars to use, and even people walking by use. Cutting down and sawing up trees. Endless cement mixers, dump trucks, backhoes coming back over and over again, digging yet a deeper hole to China (for unknown reasons), flatbed trucks hauling lumber or insulation, service trucks for audio visual equipment, heating, commercial refrigeration, plumbing. electrical and various other services. Constantly over the last year and a half. It’s the most insane thing I’ve ever seen.

The last 6 months they’ve got construction fires burning in a barrel almost daily. No matter how much wind. Right next to what appears to be a monstrous new garage for their hummer, BMW, and other vehicles. Totally illegal, and sometimes scary big. My neighbor called the fire department once. They didn’t come. A lot of laws not being enforced over there. They’re rich enough to buy off a lot of people. But, if they burn down the house, they’ll build another. Whatever. Even with the three different layers of expensive wood veneers on the front of the house they put up before she was satisfied with the color.

Having the municipality drill a new water main for their house under our front lawn. Oh, yeah. That was the pinnacle. It would all be a little funnier in its ludicrousness except that I’ve been caring for my mother with Alzheimer’s for many years, and any *little* thing can upset her, not to mention massive loud drilling, the house shaking and her front lawn being torn up several days in a row. She’s been worse after my dad died almost two years ago. I’ve had to tell her thousands (literally, thousands) of times that dad was dead. Which pains me every time I have to say it. They could have hardly picked a better time to stress us the hell out, pretty much every day on what was a quiet, dead end street for 50 years.

And no, the woman (who is a nurse) doesn’t care. Her husband (who is a doctor) probably cares even less. He barely shows up around there. She’s there all the time giving orders to her legions of workers, who probably are thrilled at the money tree they’ve found. My elderly neighbor’s daughter talked to the new neighbor after one of her trucks knocked down her mother’s mailbox. She was putting it back up and saw the woman outside. Told her the whole list of endless crap we’d been putting up with, and that she’s a lawyer. Didn’t change a thing.

*********

Well, when Oprah was backing Obama she said that she wasn’t partisan. That she’d voted for Republicans as often as Democrats. So I guess that she decided to back Obama, a self-proclaimed Democrat because of…his sterling character? His impressive list of accomplishments? His many years of unheralded political service? No? What could it have been, then?

As for Black Lives Matter, she’s spoken against it. Not interested in anti-establishment movements of the downtrodden, or how many cops get away with killing black people for any reason, or no reason. It’s of no personal concern.

@ Che Pasa

Maybe stifle yourself until you can explain why all the high profile Weinstein accusers were not invited to the Golden Globes.

Asia Argento, Rose McGowan, Rosanna Arquette, Mira Sorvino, Annabelle Sciorra.

All persona non grata so these phony Hollywood cows can virtue-signal to the world without distractions.

Yeah, Che, just your speed.

The best we can hope for is to see maximum damage to the status quo, IMO.

You and a long line of cowardly fascists waiting in the wings for collapse and a power vacuum so they can begin their raping & pillaging & genociding.

Understand the threat fascists like this punk represent and consider it in your plans if you have any. They must be dealt with first, not last, because otherwise they will do as they’ve always done and exploit the power vacuum you create and usurp power. It’s a pattern that always repeats because it’s never considered yet it’s always there.

@ Stevie

“Oprah’s Jewish Fat Rapist Pig Version Of Stedman

Come On, Oprah, Come Back To My Room With Me And I’ll Teach You The Talmud”

This is who you are, you demented freak.

Go ahead, tell us all how we can get to be just like you.

You need to be in a straitjacket, you are just an insane waste of skin. And you always have been, since you first washed up here.

Is this a lesson in the Socratic method?

I would add, few fixed ideas of her own on policy or governance, and therefore amenable to “instruction” from the existing players.

Again, just like Chance Gardiner.

If Socrates had known you, Willy, he would have drunk at least ten cups of hemlock.

Lazy minds can’t be enlightened via the Socratic method.

Socrates did not spoon-feed; he expected people to put their minds to work.

You wouldn’t understand . . .

realitychecker isn’t much more than a troll. Outside of occasionally needling it for my own amusement, I’ve lost interest in anything it has to say.

I’ve lost interest in anything it has to say.

I hear ya. All the Zionist ever says is, “hey, see that cop over there? Go shoot him. See Donald Trump over there? Go shoot him. It’s the only way to stop them.”

“Wow, so many rapist apologists. RC & Tom W Harris are the latest”

Hey genius, I didn’t defend a rapist, I slammed you for spewing Nazi filth.

Just in case you didn’t already know.

@realitychecker You made me consider for a moment: If we were actually to start identifying physical parts of the body as campaign slogans, then it is also high time to incorporate the full transgender agenda into political analysis, I believe, and all it might mean to do so. We all know by now it would go way beyond self gender identification.

Perhaps start with the basic: All politicians lie. And go from there.
But I know of one candidate already doing this, and anyone with the most casual eye can see it is simply another lie and a joke by them placed on the voter/viewer, perhaps soon with no recourse but to accept it if laws continue to pass requiring respect for an individual’s self gender identification. Imagine how that could play out in political arena. Pols could then lie all they want in that case and critical analysis would be out-lawed, worse than our present fake news.

this post and the resultant comment thread would rank among the most surrealistic and funny i’ve ever read recently, bless your collective pea-pickin’ hearts.

but at least oprah tweets-a-lot, and isn’t (as far as i can tell) on the list of lifetime sinecures at the council of foreign relations, as are ‘look out sudan’ clooney, don cheadle, warren beatty, anna deavre smith, et.al.. quite the red carpet walk, no? maybe once her disney movie comes out she’ll be awarded that dubious distinction?

i like the penis hat resistance, and hugh’s cabinet. tree huggers for interior? gads, the nation is full of those billionaires topping the non-profit industrial complex. thanks, all.

I already posted that jomaka. I also think Ian was partly kidding.

In other news… I assume Trump is going to the World Economic Forum with all its power players, to discuss how to help working Americans? I also assume Bannon won’t be going along, because he’s just too damned sloppy.

Ian, were you kidding?

I hope Ian is kidding. I mean, since when did “she won’t be any worse than the last 4 (errr, make that 6, at least, tho the previous two haven’t got mentioned much) people who all led us down the path to poverty & pointless war & onrushing biosphere destruction” become a reason to sound optimistic about someone running for president?

Tulsi/Nina (or Nina/Tulsi) (or either alone) w0uld actually give us people who’ve shown a willingness to stand up to our current political system and ignore threats to their own future while doing so. They have actual knowledge of policy. They are used to standing up to and sparring with the people they would have to stand up to and fight against.

(likewise Tim Canova, Bernie, Raul Grijalva, Lucy Flores, etc, even Elizabeth Warren, for all her flaws, none of whom is perfect but all of whom have thus far given us more to evidence of their chops than Oprah, who also isn’t perfect and seems to have fewer virtues and more flaws than any of the above)(heck, even Peter O’Malley, who was excellent in the debates tho if he ever gets any real traction will have to overcome his Baltimore detractors–I honestly don’t know enough to know how accurate said detractors were, or how different the present situation would be, but again, excellent in the debates last go round)

troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll troll

That’s all that wee Willy Wanker’s got.

How fitting to find him allied with the Nazi filth that has infiltrated this place.

And Willy, I told you to keep your hands off your penis while you type about me.

The brain damage must be affecting your memory. Don’t worry, I’ll keep reminding you. 🙂

@ normalization

Somehow, we have to make clear and obvious behavioral evidence mean more to average people. And I don’t think most people visiting here are average. I mean, how many times does it take to figure out that Trump had conned the working man? He himself said he could shoot anybody. How many would it take? You know he’ll go to Davos and do a Mar a Lago “I’m gonna make you all richer…” and his working class supporters would just ignore it and think he’s being awesome. I watch Remini’s Scientology series for clues.

Re: the general meme that Trump “conned” the working class, all of whom are still “conned”:

One reason (some of) the working class still back Trump (and really, a lot of hopefuls have probably given up on him now) is because the mainstream Dems continue to offer nothing new (see: Oprah, who is not, so far as I can tell, going to offer anything new except a nicer face on the same policies that have been killing them for a long time; i.e. people who voted for Obama and are still waiting–or rather, have given up waiting–for the “change” to fulfill the now long gone “hope” are, no matter how unhappy w/Trump, unlikely to vote for someone who is going to be only marginally better, tho Oprah at least probably has the sense not to call them all names) except more frequent and pointed insults (“it’s all your fault for not backing who WE wanted who would have been GREAT just like everything before was FINE until YOUR RACISM AND MISOGYNY ruined everything!” — for people whose vote had nothing to do with these things and who did not think things before were fine at all, yelling at them is only going to lead to results for the most easily browbeated and manipulated; the rest will either ignore you completely or take a second look to see if they can find something about Trump they do like, after all).

For other people, the whole SJW nature of the modern mainstream left is a giant turn-off, and Trump at least hates that (again, please don’t make blanket assumptions that all sjw haters vote Trump; my best online friend is a Hillary voter who hates the whole SJW garbage despite being a member of three of their preferred fragile target victim groups and defends a lot of Trump voters, but would never consider voting for him herself under any circumstances), so you got some votes just as an “F-U” to people they don’t like even from those not considered scum of the earth by the dem establishment.

And then you have people who listen to and believe right wing talk radio. I occasionally listen to it, just as I occasionally listen to MSNBC and mainstream media. IF you believe right wing talk radio, the economy is booming like never since the glory days of Reagan and if it hasn’t gotten to you yet, it soon will. This is combined with enough actual true and factual examples of left wing hypocrisy/lying (which is why OUR SIDE SHOULD QUIT DOING THIS EVEN WHEN THEY THINK IT OFFERS SHORT TERM BENEFITS) that it gives their more ludicrous claims credibility by association. Given that the mainstream and left media also frequently have howlers and misleading stuff, and plenty of “smart” and “qualified” people uncritically accept everything they here there, I’m not as inclined to glare at people for believing Hannity as I used to. People pick sources to trust, rather than looking at everything and researching and analyzing, and if they pick the wrong sources for the wrong things they are going to have innaccurate info.

On the positive side, the almost-destruction of the political class in 2016 followed people more and more believing their eyes rather than the reporting, so there’s reason to think this will continue, and Trump being so damn godawful hopefully will not stampede people into mindlessly voting for whoever the establishment types choose to market to them next go round.

Oh, and further even tho I’ve said this before a thousand times, and so have Different Clue and several others: the vote wasn’t entirely a “con”–people voted because he didn’t cheat to win his primary and they didn’t want to validate that, because they feared HRC would start a war with Russia (at least a 5050 shot there) and/or invade more middle eastern countries (near 100% certainty?) and Trump seemed less likely to do this, and because there was at least a hope he would void the TPP and an absolute 100% certainty that she would sign it ASAP without meaningful changes. On all these things, he’s absolutely delivered thus far. Granted, he’s been worse than she would’ve been in every other way, and worse than I expected, but those are pretty big things, and at least with him, you have people yelling that he’s throwing gasoline on the fire of climate change, rather than the same people applauding her for throwing a dixie cup of water on it. (no, I didn’t vote for him, tho I realize it sounds like it. Bernie/Tulsi write in here, and would again)

And finally, it made SENSE to take a flyer, as Ian pointed out, on the possibility of change even if it was more likely to be for worse than better, when voting status quo assured that things would not get better. These dumb, conned Trump voters mostly actually had decent reasons, from their point of view. One way to win them over would be to not constantly assume they are idiots and everyone on the left is relatively brilliant. /end rant

@ MW

Wolf, you are a good and thoughtful person, and I appreciate you.

I would just say, breaking the grip of the status quo players is not a small thing; rather, it is a very big, a very necessary thing that we have proven incapable of doing for ourselves.

It weakens the bad guys, the usual suspects. That’s good, but still just a first step. Still, without Trump doing that first step for us, there will be no subsequent steps taken.

I’m grateful that someone is doing something to weaken the bad guys.

I know the folks who endlessly attack me here will never do anything to weaken the bad guys. So I’m grateful to anyone who does.

It’s a complex world, and there are no magic buttons. But it’s easy to spot the folks who will never do anything to improve the situation for regular folks. They are too busy displaying their own massive dysfunction.

@TheStevenMillerBand,

I would like to believe that you are sincerely concerned about the problem of powerful rapists in high places of cultural influence. Therefor, I eagerly await your describing Bill Cosby in exactly the same sorts of ethno-racial terms in which you describe Harvey Weinstein.

. Still, without Trump doing that first step for us, there will be no subsequent steps taken.

I’m grateful that someone is doing something to weaken the bad guys.

Please just shut up with this nonsense. You are an imposter and are playing games. You know Trump is doing no such thing and yet you say he is. You are therefore a liar and a provocateur.

Trump is planning on scarfing down some Happy Meals in Davos with the “bad guys.” What a GREAT first step. I can’t wait to see when he starts running. I envision a world of contemporary plantations and a world population, after the fabricated Tribulation, of approximately 500 million people, 80% of which are slaves.

Trump has completely shed his feigned Populism and is now going full-on Plutocracy. His fallout with Bannon is reflective & symbolic of that.

Davos In, Bannon Out

TSMB, get help. Before someone is forced to get you involuntarily committed.

And stop trying to be a mind-reader, about me or anyone else. You show zero talent in that area.

You are just a disgusting low-life individual.

You and Willy should just get a room, and spare the rest of us having to contemplate your distressingly corrosive innards.

“Lent” her charisma.

@MohaveWolf,

I agree entirely that Hillary cheated to win the primary. I also observed that Trump won the electoral with far less in the way of funding than neoliberal Hillary did. I am no Bannon fan, but Trump has obviously and intentionally discarded that version of the populist and now appears to be beholden to the neocon/lib kleptocratic establishment. Shouldn’t we be learning/teaching others how to not be conned by his kind?

In a rare admission from a successful corporate manager who I saw as sociopathic, I was told that most basic in predicting another’s future behavior, is to know “the cloth they are cut from”. Few stray from their own basic nature. In 2016 I knew that Trump had NPD issues, and from personal experience I know that integrity is not an NPD quality. They will always tactically favor the situation from which they believe they’ll gain the most personal benefit. Strategic ability is almost nonexistent with them. I am uncertain about Hillary or Obama. They’re not nearly as obvious as Trump.

Outside of calling desperate swing voters “conned”, I am also uncertain about how people who know our issues can persuade them to learn how to ‘see’ the integrity behind all the campaign promises.

Hard core believers of course, might need specialists in curing Dunning–Kruger. I don’t want to believe what Ian has suggested, that they’ll all just die that way.

I wrote two sentences and got back at least a hundred. That’s a real return on investment.

dc, looks like my instinct about you was right buddy. You’re a troll who trolls trolls. Like, the Dexter of trolls.

There is literally no chance that a black corporate feminist will win the rust belt, and thus, there is no chance that she can win the Presidency.

I’m not sure how far up their own asses Democrats live at this point, but this must be patently obvious to anyone not living in crazy diamond land. Bernie Sanders could win. Warren could even win. But after Obama’s constant race-baiting against anyone who criticized him economically, there is literally no chance whatsoever that that those communities are going to vote for a black candidate until the current crop of people is dead. Obama shat the bed on that one.

Trying to bring the conversation somewhat back on topic, our politics should be more about A) having a clear vision for what kind of a country we want and B) an equally clear program about how to get us there. If you know where you are going and how you intend to get there, personalities become unimportant. You don’t need a “name” at the top of the ticket. In fact, you don’t need one anywhere along the line. The only questions a candidate needs to answer affirmatively are: are you with the program and are you willing to leave your blood on the floor for it?

Oprah (Biden, etc) is just another distraction, another indication of the bankruptcy of our political system. She takes away from that nuts and bolts conversation we should be having about how and for whom our society should function.

It is just as important to get rid of/punish our liars on the left as it is to get rid of the liars on the right.

Otherwise, we will always be dealing with the equivalent of a punchbowl that someone dropped some turds into.

There can be no rational governance of a country where everybody is always ‘sure’ that the other side is lying.

Leaders who lie to the people are the root of the problems we see. The real puzzler is, why do we never manage to punish any of them for their lies? How else to get rid of them?

They absolutely rely on the People’s general inability to do basic reality checks.

@TimothyReynolds

“Obama’s constant race-baiting against anyone who criticized him economically,”

Can you give some examples of this?

Hopeless morons will always be with us, telling us not to worry about the lying that is destroying us.

Unteachable idiots. And the supply will never run out, it appears.

Just like the supply of ‘psychopaths’ that have been my stalker’s constant companions in life (according to him lol).

Maybe you should learn to write with more clarity, instead of your usual apocryphal mutterings.

You rarely state your meaning directly. The better to avoid rebuttal? Or simply evidence of brain damage?

Who knows? Who cares, at this point?

You have gleefully defined yourself, on many occasions, as having a specific mission to stalk and harass me, flinging “feces” at every opportunity. YOUR OWN WORDS!!!!!

Everyone here knows what you have been doing.

Obnoxious and relentless dickness has consequences. Enjoy them. 🙂

Always good to get critical input from the World Capital Of Sex Tourism.

Willy, I’m going to be serious with you for just one moment, OK?

It is not about which ‘side’ lies more.

It goes much deeper than that.

Consider the role of ‘”puffing” in the contract area, a very basic (I would say probably the most basic) level of our society. We have decided, as a matter of basic policy, that it is OK to lie to close a deal.

From there, we have created no bulwark to prevent the spreading of lies and dishonesty through all other areas of our lives.

The corrosive effects of this are deadly to any rational society As we now witness daily.

I am arguing that until we assert a societal repugnance for all lying to get an advantage, and I think that severe punishment can be the only effective deterrent, we have no chance for establishing the kind of society that we all seem to agree would be better for all the decent people.

I would hope we could at least agree on this basic point. Your relentless past efforts at mockery have seemed designed to obscure that basic point.

Ok, seriously then:

Jimmy Kimmel just ‘celebrated’ our elected president’s 2000th lie. Should Trump be punished for setting such a bad example for the citizens, and even the world, or should Kimmel?

Willy, I am always adamant about the rules applying equally to everybody.

You don’t seem to have any understanding of where I am coming from, I am much more aligned with the left than with the right, but I can’t ignore the fact that my side has steadily become more like what we always decried in the other side.

Anyone who only wants to punish the liars on the OTHER SIDE is part of the problem, IMO, but that is exactly what we keep seeing, over and over.

If I had the power, I would definitely be an equal opportunity punisher.

But we will never get better if we keep insisting that only the other side needs a reality check.

But I would note that Blizzards comment above captures the present reality.

This is also why I just laugh at the media shibboleth that Trump lies a lot — what they really mean is that he says stuff that deviates from Uniparty dogma.

No TROLL, what it means is THEY LIE TOO so therefore THEY HAVE NO LEG TO STAND ON. He who casts the first stone and all that biblical jazz. It doesn’t mean that Trump doesn’t lie, it means they are not the ones who get to point it out even thought they do anyway because they have no shame.

You’re a Left/Right Political Duopoly Moron. Perhaps a Purposeful Stooge & Provocateur. Why are you even here? Oh, that’s right, to push The Party Line. Of course.

One of the reasons I read Ian is because he has intelligently transcended The Party Line and I think that’s why you are strategically here trolling away — because you want to bring everyone back to it, whether it be Left or Right, and undo Ian’s intent.

It’s a dangerous thing indeed if enough people become enlightened and realize neither party in The Political Duopoly represents their interests, but instead the interests of The Rich, and therefore their vote, currently at least, is worthless or in fact worth Less Than Zero because it serves to legitimate an otherwise illegitimate farce.

But I would note that Blizzards comment above captures the present reality.

Of course you do. I predicted you would before you did. Trolls agree with fellow Trolls. Hence you agree with BoC. Surprise Surprise!!

The TROLL’S comment is truth mixed with lies. The implication is that Trump is not a liar because the liars have said so and since liars lie, them calling Trump a liar is a lie. Great illogic. I’m not buying it. I prefer logic instead.

Both sides are the same side and they ALL lie. Therefore, Trump is a liar and so too are RC and BoC and by their own admission, they should be dealt with harshly.

‘Reflections in a Golden Globe’, William Kaufman, counterpunch

“Swathing themselves in obscenely expensive designer black is a close to an insurrectionary gesture as the rich, beautiful, and erratically talented entertainment elites will ever allow themselves—other than chanting “I’m with her” while stumping for the corrupt war criminal of their choice who at least has the good taste to seem merely callously robotic rather than overtly boorish.”

“I harbor enough guilt just from being Jewish; I don’t need three hours of hectoring from Oprah and Babs—the royalty of neoliberal aristocracy—and the rest of the black-clad, bejeweled, private-jet “activists.” When the fatuous billionaire Oprah—who leapfrogged to world renown and obscene riches by sadistically parading the desperation and emotional dysfunctions of the underclass on her TV show—was heralded with a reverence normally reserved for saints and deities, and then had the chutzpah to equate herself with Rosa Parks, I finally felt the gag reflex kicking in. The amount these people spend annually on cosmetic surgery alone could finance a debt-free college education for the entire high school population of Los Angeles.”

https://www.counterpunch.org/2018/01/10/reflections-in-a-golden-globe/

but hey, if O runs, she and two other uber-wealthy stars could run as a coalition presidency. say…stephen colbert and samantha bee?

Willy, I am always adamant about the rules applying equally to everybody….

Agree. But BOO says that fact checking sites are inadequate, they even “seem to be qualitatively less honest than the average politician”. So my point stands.

If we have no trusted sources of objectivity, our culture will suffer as a result. It will be that much harder to contain lies. I remain open to any answers to this problem.

Trump: “We essentially repealed Obamacare because we got rid of the individual mandate … and that was a primary source of funding of Obamacare.”

BlizzardofOz: “Does this look false’ to you?

Obamacare is alive and well. About 9 million people have already signed up and it is expected that about 12 million people will ultimately enroll in the program. Some states, who manage their own Obamacare programs, have later enrollment deadlines than the Federal government under Trump. Total enrollment in Obamacare for 2018 is expected to be similar to total enrollment in Obamacare for 2017. So yes, it does seem pretty ridiculous to claim that Obamacare has been ‘repealed’ under these circumstances.

But we can’t even seem to achieve that here, how much harder out in the real world?

Punishment without clear explanation doesn’t work. It creates hostility. It’s hard to persuade hostile people.

When I look at history, the better civilizations built institutions of integrity, which the citizens rely on to help maintain their civil society. Science, academia, moral religions, representative democratic government, law enforcement, health care, all the various checks and balances against destructive abuses of power.

When these things crumble, people will grasp at anything to survive in a dog eat dog world, including lying.

Who is destroying these institutions today?

Let me just add, we have laws to control the bad people. The good people will, in theory, never act in a way that requires punishment. Even without laws.

But the bad people, lacking an internal ethical/moral structure that would reliably steer them toward good behavior, require unpleasant consequences to make them stop their anti-social behavior. They hardly ever wake up and say, “Gee, I’ll just be a good person from now on.”

NO, they respond to fear of bad consequences. If not solely to bad consequences, then certainly mostly, and certainly most quickly, to bad consequences. Any psychologist, or even animal trainers, will tell you that some bad consequence is required and most effective to extinguish bad behavior.

See if you can get your kid, or your dog, to touch a hot stove again after they have been badly burned by touching one. Get back to us with your results.

But immediacy of the bad consequence is the most critical factor. Without that, results diminish.

This is basic, yet the left exerts so much energy trying to deny it.

About liar checking . . . and truer checking . . .

How do we know what we know?
How do we know we know what we know we know?
How do we know that we know we know . . . what we know that we know we know?

At the innermost level of the deepest ultimate . . . I am not sure.

At the superficial level of the proximate operating truth, if I have spent years learning about something, and see what I think I have learned reflected in desired results and outcomes in the meatspace analog real world I live in, and if I want to see whether I can provisionally trust a source to give me actual factual information about something I DON’T know; I study them over time to see what they say about something I DO know about. If they get it right consistently over time about something(s) I DO know about, then I am prepared to give them the working benefit of the doubt when they talk with equal authoritude about something I know nothing about but which THEY say they DO know about.

About fact-checking, one call tell a Big Lie with just the right arrangement of just the right cherry-picked facts. The cherry-picked facts in question can all be actually factual and oh-so-literally correct; but can be used to convey an exactly false meaning in the strategic absence of certain carefully undisclosed context-providing big-picture-completion other facts.

In a world and thread of acrimony, there are a lot of comments saying stuff I like, including from people who don’t like each other. All this is worth repeating:

@Hugh– This was a GREAT post: our politics should be more about A) having a clear vision for what kind of a country we want and B) an equally clear program about how to get us there. If you know where you are going and how you intend to get there, personalities become unimportant. You don’t need a “name” at the top of the ticket. In fact, you don’t need one anywhere along the line. The only questions a candidate needs to answer affirmatively are: are you with the program and are you willing to leave your blood on the floor for it?

Oprah (Biden, etc) is just another distraction, another indication of the bankruptcy of our political system. She takes away from that nuts and bolts conversation we should be having about how and for whom our society should function.

Tom W Harris permalink
January 10, 2018

Quite true. And the Oprah buzz is a very strong sign that the Democrats will not do anything for everyday people. They’d rather die with neo-liberalism than live with a New Deal II.

realitychecker
January 10, 2018

There can be no rational governance of a country where everybody is always ‘sure’ that the other side is lying.
&
I am arguing that until we assert a societal repugnance for all lying to get an advantage . .. we have no chance for establishing the kind of society that we all seem to agree would be better for all the decent people.
&

Blizz: Even “fact checking” requires a basic level of honesty, which just doesn’t exist in mass media. (this may be the only time we ever agree on anything, but there ya go.)

& there were others but these will do for now.

@ MW

You deserve all the kind words you get, Wolf. We’ve been around each other for a bunch of years, and your voice has ALWAYS been a thoughtful, good-hearted one worthy of respect and appreciation. I hope you are doing OK dealing with the recent change in your life. ((MW))

BUT, you ARE wrong about my feelings for Trump. All your other observations are on point, IMO.

I don’t expect a magic unicorn, never have, never will. We need big changes on MANY fronts, but Trump helps on only a few. Still, the other folks you mention offer nothing that I could support. And neither I, nor you, nor any that we were allied with at FDL, has managed to do anything to even start to break down the status quo.

Trump proves an outsider can win, and deliberately makes the insanely pc crowd go crazy (a prerequisite for letting them hit bottom and re-think themselves lol). He is also right about recent immigration policy being nonsensical and even self-destructive. And the trade pacts being problematic. And the mainstream corporate media needing to be killed en masse (just kidding, a severe beating would be satisfactory lol.)

These things open the door for massive changes in people’s belief systems, changes we desperately need to have happen. They are just a beginning though, a mere glimmer of hope for what might follow. Eventually, the People will have to shoulder the burdens to get the rest done.

Sure, I hate what he has done for the rich and the corporations, but that was always his nature. And no different from what Obama did, or Hillary would have done, IMO. Let’s not forget that all the increased wealth in the last eight years was deliberately engineered to go to the top few percent, and Hillary promised more of the same.

And sure, he’s a self-centered asshole. So is Hillary. So was Obama. So was W. So was Clinton. I wouldn’t let any of them into my home, nor would I want to be in theirs. So what? He’s doing some good in some areas I really care about. Nobody else is, or wants to. That’s the reality I’m being guided by right now.

Mixed bag, admittedly, Still, who are we, as pathetically impotent as we have proven ourselves to be, to spurn the good parts?

The best way to sum up my feelings toward Trump is that he is the enemy of my enemies, sometimes hurting them in ways I and you and nobody else on the left seems to be able to do at all.

I’ll take what I can get, but I don’t expect miracles. We are in a war for the future of regular people world-wide, and that will be a long fight that we will lose if we don’t get our heads straight real soon. So, I will take what I can get. I’ll swallow some more of the inevitable bad in order to get some of the otherwise unattainable good.

It’s a long-term process, still just beginning. And it’s also possible that we are already past the point of no return. No deus ex machina for us in any event, and if we can’t up our game, stop believing false things and achieve some consensus on what is true and right, no happy ending for us regular folks.

@realitychecker,

John L. King, historical economist/ economic historian and author of How To Profit From The Next Great Depression said . . . ” Him that is not surprised when the future comes, lives very close to the truth.”

So there is another check-method. People who are “ready and prepared” for something when all around them are surprised, must have been living close enough to the truth to know in advance what to be ready for.

Edit: might adopt