The Covid Idiot Shuffle

In the UK there is no effective track and trace. They are quite willing for the poor to die. They’ve put certain measures in place for “essential workers” but on the whole, they don’t really care.

First, there is still no credible evidence that Ivermectin is an effective COVID treatment. The big widely-cited study that claimed it was has been withdrawn because it manipulated data, and other studies don’t provide evidence that it actually works. See here:

https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/ivermectin-still-lacks-scientific-support-as-a-covid-19-drug-69049

Second, Florida is having a big COVID surge right now, and 96% of people hospitalized for it are unvaccinated:

https://abc7chicago.com/florida-covid-coronavirus-hospitalization-rates-unvaccinated-people/10903372/

And yet, Ian, you still have right-wingers coming to your comment section and telling people “vaccines don’t work!” If you want to see less COVID-related idiocy in the world, may I suggest that you at least address it on your own website?

As usual I agree with Ian but will point out that if case numbers are increasing then by definition the transmission rate must be greater than 1.0. The truth is that no one is sure what the transmission rate is. Add the fact that many cases are asymptomatic, don’t get tested because they’re not aware that they are infected, and aren’t counted among the official statistics.

If we were serious about tackling covid (HA !) we’d test the entire population about once a week. That’s the only way you are going to identify all cases so that they can be isolated and not continue spreading.

At a minimum we should be doing weekly sewage testing for every single town, hamlet, or bump in the road, but in the U.S. we’re not even doing that.

We live in a failed state. Though maybe we’ve had this weakness — the whole Ayn Rand look out for number one and don’t tell me what to do mentality — all along and covid merely makes that weakness more obvious.

I was referring in my comment to other anti-vax people who post here who are right-wingers. But regardless of whether you personally are a right-winger, Jason, you are repeating right-wing anti-vax propaganda and disinformation.

A major study was just performed and found that although the COVID vaccines are less effective against the Delta variant, they are still effective:

https://www.imperial.ac.uk/news/227713/coronavirus-infections-three-times-lower-double/

New research has found that double vaccinated people were three times less likely than unvaccinated people to test positive for the coronavirus.

These results from the Imperial-led REACT-1 study, a major coronavirus monitoring programme, are based on swab tests taken by almost 100,000 people in England between 24 June and 12 July.

…

The study’s analyses of PCR test results also suggest that fully vaccinated people may be less likely than unvaccinated people to pass the virus on to others, due to having a smaller viral load on average and therefore likely shedding less virus.

And as we see from the data in Florida, 96% of people hospitalized for COVID there are unvaccinated. Vaccines work and the data shows they work. These are the plain and simple facts.

What’s the motive for pushing to get everybody vaccinated to then have the vaccines fail and new variants arise?

What’s wrong with erring on the side of (future and likely yearly) $150+ vaccines and the potential for flu-like symptoms, instead of hospital visits costing your life’s savings?

Is Jason vaccinated?

The US has no national health care system and no national approach to covid. Testing and reporting case numbers were always going to be hit or miss. And the fractured approach was going to get a lot of people killed.

I saw a story that said the CDC could have done a much better job of communicating what it does and does not know. I agree.

I think there was a misplaced hope that vaccination and good weather would slow the transmission rate, but with the new more infectious variants, we are seeing a surge instead. But as NR says, the vaccinated, many of whom are older with other medical conditions, are not the ones ending up in the hospital and the morgue this time around.

I wonder if this isn’t a retrospective with the new Delta constants. Contemporary posts show it as bottoming at about .73 around 21 May.

There actually was (I think still is) quarantine provision in Toronto, but you either have to be referred by a community agency or know it exists to self-refer. So effective quarantine, no. As I understand the lack of contact tracing, it comes down to insufficient new money for TPH and like agencies and an unwillingness to take the risk to privacy that goes with bringing on volunteers – though thousands self-recruited.

Jason, did you miss the link I provided that gives data showing that 96% of people hospitalized for COVID in Florida are unvaccinated? Currently, right now, today.

But I guess if you ignore any and all data that contradicts your preferred narrative, you can believe whatever you want, right?

All stripes and colors?

I doubt it. I’d lay good money that we’d find differential representation of openness to experience, agreeableness and neuroticism.

My link about the Florida cases was from late July, but here is a current article showing the same information:

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/coronavirus/vaccines/fl-ne-covid-hospital-patients-who-are-they-20210803-udptzx3vbnbyzoynd4utcrbium-story.html

Actually, according to this article, 98% of hospitalized COVID patients are unvaccinated.

From the article NR posted:

“They mostly are infected with the Delta strain.”

Now stop and think.

The vaccinated are also mostly infected with the Delta strain. And they’re ending up in the hospital as well. Remember, the U.S. is weeks behind what’s being established as precedent in other areas of the world. This will become more obvious here as we move forward, unfortunately.

Too, it looks like they are going to try to continue to blame it on the unvaccinated. This is unfortunate as well. It’s going to take a whole shitload of propaganda – more than the usual even – to get people to believe something that simply won’t hold in the face of the overwhelming evidence.

So, back to the question. Why didn’t the unvaccinated succumb to earlier strains? Were they being more careful than the vaccinated? That’s not what we were led to believe.

I don’t think we’ll come up with a definitive answer to this question, but it bears some thinking on. I said thinking. And reflecting. Not pouncing to rebut.

A more important point was raised by metamars above. We should be quite concerned about ADE and the probability at this point that the vaccines “leak” (in their parlance) and are driving variants that are both more contagious and potentially more devastating.

“Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of the good.”

Anti-vaxxers have been doing their uttermost to spread Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) — one of the prime uses of the internet from its foundation.

Anything people can think of is used to convince others not to get vaccinated or propose alternative care (that probably isn’t effective) if someone is at risk of infection or has the disease.

The commentariat at NC collectively lost its mind yesterday (not for the first time) over the looming specter of mandatory vaccination, whipped to a frenzy by “Yves” and “Lambert” because the vaccines “aren’t FDA approved” and forcing them on people without that imprimatur is… I don’t know, a death sentence? To see the shrieking and rending of garments over it, you’d think so. But even if they were fully approved, you know there would still be hysterics over it in some quarters.

Vaccines of any kind scare people. I remember how frightened I was to get the smallpox vaccine when I was a kid (turned out I was naturally immune) and then later abject fear of the polio vaccine (by injection) both of which were mandatory — with exceptions. I got those vaccinations, and many others over the years. Surprise! They aren’t all perfectly protective, nor are any of the currently offered Covid vaccines. I’ve had flu and pneumonia after receiving those vaccines, and I’ve been warned that I may have no protection from Covid even though I’ve been vaccinated because I’m immune suppressed.

I got the Moderna vaccine anyway. I had no ill effects. But I may not be protected. That is not an argument not to get vaccinated.

The various health agencies have, it’s true, badly mangled public communications, and have routinely screwed up announcement of the “science,” pretty clearly because public health has not been a national priority for decades, they don’t have a strong or coherent communications shop, and they were subject to intense political pressure and manipulation and probably still are.

Then there’s Pharma and its insatiable greed shooting for endless income from the vaccines and the endless boosters to come, and getting very close to their goal. But as we know, it’s never enough. Should we therefore not get vaccinated? Pfft.

Yes, and vaccines are being dumped rather than distributed abroad where they are more needed than they are here. Should we not get vaccinated because of it? No, we should insist on global production and distribution, regardless of Pharma’s resistance.

Then we hear the arguments that “it’s not that bad, and only 1% die.” So why risk being vaccinated when there are potential side effects — like with any drug or vaccine — that could in very rare cases lead to your death?

Or we hear that vaccine protection “doesn’t last forever” so why get vaccinated?

Round and round and round.

Is there a way to get past this stupidity?

Short term, probably not. Refuseniks are gonna refuse. The disease will settle in for a good long run, and a lot more people are going to get sick and die.

Seems like a whole lot of people are fine with that — as long as it’s not them.

What they said is that they were against prophylactic measures and treatments which haven’t been verified by credible researchers to work.

You’re obviously not serious, Willy. Your “haven’t been verified by credible researchers” is what I was referencing above. It”s a non-form of argument (you get an F) and it’s disgusting to boot.

The FLCCC and similar organizations and doctors aren’t credible because they’re practicing the art of medicine, while the dictates from on high are deemed “credible” because…

I suppose, seen through the framework of psychology, it’s because the people who got the shot are scared. Unknowns can be terrifying.

The larger problem here is the utter lack of logic and appeals to emotion.

refusniks, perfect, credible sources, blah, blah, blah

Thank you, Jason, for seeing through the noise.

Lets look at the links NR posted.
Here is what the UK one found “those who had received both doses of a vaccine, at 1.21% compared to 0.40% (Covid infection rate)”. The Vaccines prevented 0.81% of people who got them from getting Covid. The Vaccines which started off with a 95% effective rate several months ago now according to this link have a 50% effectiveness rate.
Rounding up 1 person out of ever 100 who got the experimental vaccine received any benefit from it.

The Florida link isn’t of a study, research, or comprehensive data but rather it is a short term anecdotal report from a hospital with no comparison group. If the vaccinated people died from heart inflammation, or blood clots they count as having benefited from the vaccine because they didn’t catch Covid. This is the same as those Americans proclaiming that destroying the Village saved it.

NR: “Ivermectin a decades old drug with 60+ studies finding it a safe and effective treatment for Covid has no credible evidence for benefits. The Experimental Vaccines with a few studies done by the corporation selling it that doesn’t even test for safety means Vaccines are safe and effective and need to be force on all.”

NR in 1980: “The Vietnam Villages we bombed had zero deaths from Commies. Those opposing bombing villages are right wing hacks who want people to die.”

It is obvious why NR posts so many insults, and logical fallacies.

Jason, I really couldn’t care less what you think about me. The FLCCC is notorious for posting abstracts which contain unsubstantiated claims. Not credible.

If you’ve gotten the shot and you’re still scared (I have and am not) just add in all the other remedies already, proven or not.

The only thing that makes sense is that Jason is a paid Big Pharma FUD disinformation troll.

What I consider “being okay” is getting back to normal life (not endless debates on the internet about how we should never get back to normal life, although they may pull me in too, and really not self-medicating myself with vet medicines because I think I have a medical degree even though I have no medical training).

The FLCCC is notorious for posting abstracts which contain unsubstantiated claims. Not credible.

I don’t want to get into a “he-said, she-said” but this is patently false. The FLCCC are front-line doctors from around the world. They are absolutely credible.

I am a nurse in the northeastern United States.

janice,

It just got posted why here.

Why not just let people get their shots, then advise for those still afraid (and anybody else who might listen), that it’d be a good idea to check out all the other remedies, prophylactics, vitamins and other ailment aids?

Why continuously rail against getting a damned vaccine? I still see ads all the time for from side-effects lawyers. If you grow a horn from your vax, then sue. Did something I don’t know about suddenly get mandated?

Furthermore, Fauci has been almost as problematical as that lady with the shoulder scarves. Bafflegab has been his stock in trade for decades. Good luck trying to parse his statements.

We’ve seen from the outset that Our Rulers and their servants don’t have the intention to stop the spread of Covid let alone eradicate it. They are fine with letting it become endemic and they don’t care if future variants are more lethal than the current ones — as long as they are protected and get the finest treatment should they become ill. That’s what matters to them, not what happens to the rest of us. In fact, the more of us that get sick and die, the better from their point of view.

That’s the reality. The reality is also that the vaccines are partially effective and provide limited protection for most people who receive them. The vaccines are not perfect, but they have been shown to help immeasurably in reducing the prevalence of the disease and the severity of its consequences. 6-8 months appears to be the maximum effectiveness of the vaccines. Consequently, Our Rulers’ Pharma partners are salivating at the many trillions they will gain over time by producing and selling boosters and new and improved vaccines. Yay them.

The unvaccinated are starting to realize that they and their loved ones are the ones suffering the most from Covid, and some are taking precautions including getting vaccinated, though of course many will continue to insist they and their previous refusals were not the problem. It’s always someone else’s fault. Politics uber alles.

This could have been nipped in the bud a long time ago. It wasn’t and it won’t be. US lifespans and birthrates have been on the decline for quite a while. Now, since Covid, they’re cratering. Some of us do what we can to keep going, others have given up, and there are plenty who are eager to ensure that the pace of decline accelerates.

Our Rulers don’t care.

It just got posted why here.

I don’t know what this means. As I said, I’m not here to get into a back and forth.

I posted a link for everyone reading, so those who wish to may read and scrutinize the information themselves.

Prove to me that Jason isn’t one of their paid disinformation operatives.

Hmmm. I was going to write, “What has Jason possibly written that makes you think he’s ‘one of their paid disinformation operatives'” but then I realized I’m either:

1) Being intentionally provoked by someone not altogether well
2) Simply dealing with someone who’s not altogether well

Take care of yourself, Willy.

The unvaccinated are starting to realize that they and their loved ones are the ones suffering the most from Covid

You’re speaking for all the unvaccinated? Geez, that’s audacious. Perhaps it was just a writing device. I frankly think it’s uncalled for at this time.

Anyway, that’s NOT what’s happening in Israel and other places around the world with high vaccination rates. The vaccinated are wondering what’s going on.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to make such a hard delineation between the vaxed and unvaxed. We need to be working together.

I read the comments here from time to time and I’m amazed at the “outing” of Willy and Che. I know bruce wilder – whose posts I almost always appreciate – has said he enjoys Willy’s stories as opposed to some of the other things sometimes posted here. I don’t know bruce. I don’t know if you know Willy personally or if he’s just an online presence in your life, but I think you ought to reevaluate. Willy’s a nut job. Show me who your friends are and I’ll show you who you are. Online friends (sad) or not.

Ian, these guys are a brutal combination of flighty, featherbrained, and just plain strange – and not in a good way, like “Keep Vermont Weird” or something similar.

janice,
Che was referring to the Tony Wikrent post from a few days ago.

Rebecca,
without specific quotes to discuss, that’s called an ad hominem. Please be more specific so we can learn more about you.

“I always wonder what it is about Ian’s site that it draws all the crazies. Anti-vaxxers, Trumpers, climate change deniers, China apologists, you name it, they show up with their noise machines. Facts? They don’t need them. Or they have their own, from an inexhaustible supply of goofball authorities. Call them on any of this and you get the Oh yeah? Well, back at you times ten!

And so it goes. There is a point in just about every thread where the crazies take over. The only use to it is that it shows that a lot of people are more interested in cultivating their prejudices and delusions than in understanding anything or solving any problem. That’s our world.”

Take out the insults, and logical fallacies, and there would be nothing left in Hugh’s post. Anyone know the term for the type of post Hugh made? Cognitive dissonance, psychological projection, trolling?

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/aug/05/us-healthcare-system-ranks-last-11-wealthiest-countries

‘The US is last on a ranking of healthcare systems among 11 of the wealthiest countries in the world, despite spending the highest percentage of its GDP on healthcare, according to a new report from the Commonwealth Fund. … The other countries analyzed in the report were Australia, Canada, France, Germany, the Netherlands, New Zealand, Norway, Sweden, Switzerland and the UK.’

(Actually, when I look at the annual global stats, the US usually ranks somewhere about 38th for overall outcomes. This Commonwealth study here particularly emphasizes *access* to healthcare, among other factors.)

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/fund-reports/2021/aug/mirror-mirror-2021-reflecting-poorly

“The United States trails far behind other high-income countries on measures of health care affordability, administrative efficiency, equity, and outcomes ….”

As noted, the US does NOT trail far behind other high-income countries in terms of siphoning off a massive share of annual GDP to rich asset holders invested in shares of US healthcare/insurance, however.

The UK’s NHS — which has slipped to fourth place from first under the impact of COV19 — costs 10.2 percent of UK GDP, while Australia costs 9.4 percent of GDP and New Zealand costs 9.1 percent and are pretty much tied at 2nd and 3rd. Numero uno is Norway, which spends 10.5 percent of their GDP on healthcare.

The US spends 17 percent of GDP on healthcare, by contrast. So, via one of the worst healthcare “systems” in the world, the rich in the U.S. steadily siphon off — loot, that is — 7-8 percent of US GDP for themselves. The “exceptional nation’s” system’s working!

In an unfortunate note for Ian, Canada is ranked at #10 just before the US. Canadian healthcare still only costs 10.8 percent of Canada’s GDP.

Interestingly, the four countries that spend the least — Norway, Australia, New Zealand, the UK — do the best in many respects. According to the study —

A comparison of the features of top-performing countries and poorer-performing countries suggests that top-performing countries rely on four features to attain better and more equitable health outcomes:

[1] They provide for universal coverage and remove cost barriers so people can get care when they need it and in a manner that works for them.
[2] They invest in primary care systems to ensure that high-value services are equitably available locally in all communities to all people, reducing the risk of discrimination and unequal treatment.
[3] They reduce the administrative burdens on patients and clinicians that cost them time and effort and can discourage access to care, especially for marginalized groups.
[4] They invest in social services that increase equitable access to nutrition, education, child care, community safety, housing, transportation, and worker benefits that lead to a healthier population and fewer avoidable demands on health care.

Jason wrote: “Why didn’t the unvaccinated succumb to earlier strains? Were they being more careful than the vaccinated? That’s not what we were led to believe … I don’t think we’ll come up with a definitive answer to this question, but it bears some thinking on.”

With these particular unvaccinated who didn’t succumb to earlier strains — because plenty of unvaccinated did — a big factor would be that we’re seeing individuals with viral loads more than 1,000 times greater with the delta variant.

Those much larger viral loads would also presumably contribute not only to delta’s general transmissibility but also to its breakthrough capability in the vaccinated delta-COV19 cases.

The attempts by “NR” were quickly and summarily debunked by Oakchair.

You mean how I posted links to scientific studies and factual data, and Oakchair “debunked” them by displaying his complete ignorance of statistical methods and relative risk?

Oh yes, he certainly “debunked” me!

@Oakchair

And the rest of your posts are garbage.

Speaking of David Brooks, I remember the Tony Wikrent link to his ‘collapsing levels of trust’ article:
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/10/collapsing-levels-trust-are-devastating-america/616581/

I was already fully aware of Brooks reputation, but that didn’t keep others from proclaiming that a broken clock cannot ever tell time right, not even twice a day. Brooks may be wrong in what he figured were the causes, but he was right on the money about the effects. And boy do we have effects.

Ran Prieur had some good comments about “about psychological collapse and online communities going bad” back on July 30:
http://www.ranprieur.com/

It used to be that ordinary people would accept whatever the TV said — or before that, the church. Only a few weirdos developed the skill of looking at a broad swath of potential facts, and drawing their own pictures.
It’s like seeing shapes in the clouds. It’s not just something you do or don’t do — it’s a skill you can develop, to see more shapes more easily. And now everyone is learning it.
Through the magic of the internet, everyone is discovering that they can make reality look like whatever they want. They feel like they’re finding truth, when really they’re veering off into madness.

I’d add in the human need for cognitive closure, where one feels uncomfortable until whatever issue is settled.

bruce is big on keeping debates low key. He seems to assume (erroneously IMO) that it’s all just one big tribal misunderstanding. I wonder if he’s around to chime in on all this.

I have a lot of respect for Vaush. He said that just because the drug companies are out for #1, doesn’t mean they can’t produce a reasonable product. Anything else just isn’t plausible enough, yet.

Most of my commentary on Covid — and other things — is based on personal experience or that of friends and relations and people I’ve interviewed. I realize among some people personal experience is worthless unless it fits a particular framework or narrative.

Early on, Covid or the complications from it were devastating. We have friends who got sick and lost relatives on the Navajo Reservation and Pine Ridge, and they had friends who were going through hell on other Native lands or in cities like Tulsa and Houston. We found out very early that this disease was real and could be severe and/or deadly. Common treatments were not working; hospitals were overwhelmed, and for months it was difficult or impossible for people without access to such simple things as masks and running water and hand sanitizer to cope or avoid catching the disease, and shortly hundreds of thousands/millions were sick and tens of thousands were dead.

A Navajo friend called what was happening “genocide” and she wasn’t far from wrong.

The specific things that might have helped slow or stop the spread either weren’t available or weren’t done or were implemented so poorly that they may as well not have been done. Ian has documented plenty of that failure.

The introduction of vaccines was slow, poorly implemented (I won’t detail what I went through, but I imagine everyone has heard horror stories by now), but soon enough they were making a difference. Vaccinated people weren’t getting as sick and weren’t dying as often. Simple, straightforward, and easy to understand. The vaccines weren’t perfect. And that was made clear: 95% or 70% effective is not 100%; really. It isn’t.

You can dispute all you want, and you can do you utmost to convince others not to get vaccinated — but why? If you don’t want to get vaccinated then you have an obligation to keep your distance and stay out of the faces and lives of others. Especially people you don’t know.

You can promote alternative medications as much as you want and by all means, take them! I’ve been taking Plaquenil, vitamins D and B12, zinc and a shit-ton of other stuff for years but I don’t think they prevent me from getting Covid. Vaccines may not have protected me. I know that.

I didn’t socialize at all for over a year, and I rarely socialize now except on Zoom and such. When I’m indoors with others I wear a mask. I wash and use hand sanitizer. When I’m around other vaccinated people, as I was a couple of days ago where there were maybe a hundred in attendance, I keep my distance (most of the time) and wear a mask (as did most everyone even though they were all vaccinated.)

I go to the hospital tomorrow for day-long treatment and everyone will be masked and most will be vaccinated (hospital requires all staff to be vaccinated by September, no exceptions). Staff will wear and change gloves and will wipe down everything. And yet they and I know that even with precautions, eventually some will test positive, show symptoms and some will die. Fewer will do so with vaccine than without. And when everyone is vaccinated (ha) 100% of those who get sick and die of Covid will be among the vaccinated. Amazing.

@Astrid

Good idea. Now make it happen.

Our national government and those who own it have no intention of doing any such thing, though some states, localities and employers are nudging closer to it.

But I think even if it does happen more generally, it’s too late to do much good, and a wasted generation would have to pass before it would make a difference.

@NR

That amounts to attacking it. Because you’re wrong, and you’re wrong about the evidence. Yet you continue to engage in agnotology.

Soredemos, there is this thing called the Hippocratic Oath: first due no harm. Your IM Doc doesn’t know if, where, when, and with whom Ivermectin might have some benefit. You yourself say it might have no benefit. I’m guessing your doc is pushing the line that Ivermectin is innocuous to salve his/her conscience. But what they are doing is not medicine. Charitably, you could call it a pragmatic treatment. Even there they are running close to the line. Such a treatment is on a case by case basis, and there needs to be a clinical indication to justify it. And no pulling your hair doesn’t count.

Nope.
Still can’t read the comments.

Because you’re wrong, and you’re wrong about the evidence.

This is a bold statement with nothing to back it up.

In any case, all I posted was a link to a meta-analysis. If you have a problem with it, I suggest you take it up with the authors.

@ NR

The UK study you posted found Covid vaccines prevent 0.8 out of every 100 people who get the vaccine from getting Covid. You have consistently denied and insulted people who stated what you now agree is a fact. I await you’re apology for your trolling behavior but like Trump you’ll likely double down.

Here are the risk ratios for ivermectin verse placebo in the link NR posted. Mortality 0.60. So either NR lacks the capabilities to comprehend that this means ivermectin reduced deaths or NR is a liar. Soredemos will await NR’s apology for the insults and trolling.

@ Willy “The payoff for not taming covid, is that Big Pharma will have (yet another) obsolescence business model from which to profit off of for decades to come. In light of this, it’s most rational to get the damned free vax,

No. I did not say that,

I have always said that for Big Pharma profit is Job 1,.”

Trump tried this strategy you’re using where you go in circles denying what you said then repeat it all while projecting your own behavior onto everyone else as a distraction.

Eric comes from the days of StewartM, Mojave Wolf, Webstir… and other pros who filled the place with good ideas. I was just a duly-designated representative from the kids table back then. It looks like Oakchair occupies that seat now.

A preliminary study shows that as many as 40% of white-tailed deer have antibodies to SARS-CoV-2 in 4 states:
https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.07.29.454326v1.full

With a population of 30 million white tailed deer in North America, the concern is that deer may become a wild reservoir for the virus to mutate and spread to other species.

I am vaccinated, and I honestly do not know what to think about the pandemic at this point or our chances of reducing it to something manageable. I do not know how effective the vaccines are against the new variants, as the data is new and changing, and public health officials continually shift emphasis. Originally, the vaccines were 90+% effective at preventing illness, now their effectiveness is based on preventing hospitalization and death. The viral loads in the vaccinated and unvaccinated appear to be equal with the Delta variant, according to the Provincetown data. In the Provincetown study 74% of the cases were vaccinated, 26% were unvaccinated. Only 5 people were hospitalized: 4 vaccinated and 1 unvaccinated with co-morbidities. There were no deaths. I do wonder why out of the 26% unvaccinated cases more did not end up hospitalized. I wish I could make sense of it.

I got the Moderna vaccine, but I will admit that It was not an easy decision, mainly because the PREP Act (Public Readiness And Emergency Preparedness law) was enacted, which makes it impossible to sue over vaccine safety until 2024. What if the vaccine injured me and I wound up with a lot of medical bills or couldn’t work? But in the end I took the risk, because I so badly want to stop the spread of this disease. This is why I also continue to wear a mask.

I have a feeling things are going to become more confusing before they become clearer. Last year I read the book Bring Out Your Dead, by J.M. Powell about the yellow fever outbreak in Philadelphia in 1793. It was stunning in its similarity to the handling of this pandemic over 200 years later from the mass exodus of the rich, to the racism, and the untested medical treatments. Quite uncomfortable reading.

Oakchair:

I have consistently stated that you are ignorant of concepts like statistical methods and relative risk because you have consistently displayed your ignorance of concepts like statistical methods and relative risk. And now it seems that you don’t know what “very low-certainty evidence” means either. I would have thought that was simple enough at least, but I guess not.

But in the end I took the risk, because I so badly want to stop the spread of this disease.

That is both a socially-conscious, as well as a personally conscientious, decision.

Unfortunately, the vaccines don’t stop the spread of the disease.

all you needed to say was that you’ve been vaccinated, you have no problem with others getting theirs, as long as they understand that this thing isn’t over yet, and with bad news increasingly coming in, that you’re recommending additional measures against covid so we stay protected.

Thank you for announcing to me, entirely unprompted, what I should have said. Or, as you put it: “all you needed to say….”

I don’t believe there should have been a mass vaccination campaign and I don’t believe the numbers or propaganda coming from Big Pharma in support of said campaign. I am very concerned about the unknown effects of these vaccines over the long-term. I believe that a substantial number of negative reactions to these vaccines – including very serious ones – are not showing up in the datasets. I also believe, as I have stated more than once, that the vaccines “leak” and that ADE is real. I don’t know exactly what is to be done about this, as even some of those most vocal about ADE have said that vaccinations should continue for the most vulnerable, while some have said the entire vaccination campaign should be shut down. I do not know, but I do know that hiding our heads in the sand and pretending it isn’t happening isn’t going to help.

Given that that just touches on what I believe to this point, why would I make anything approaching a statement like the one you offered Willy? So as not to maintain any personal integrity?

Shorter Jason, 600,000 dead from covid is not enough. What? You shooting for a million?

@ Mr Jones

What are the odds that Israel is called a conspiracy nut case nation and claimed to be lying about everything?

The vaccine enthusiast crowd already completely ignores the fact that Covid vaccination is associated with increased excess mortality rates.

Uk excess mortality was bellow pre-Covid levels then they began vaccinating and mortality went up 100%. Germany Vaccination rates went from 5 to 20% from April to June and excess mortality went form -10% to 15%. France was at 0% excess mortality and began mass vaccination and mortality went up to 20%.

https://ourworldindata.org/excess-mortality-covid

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/share-people-fully-vaccinated-covid?time=2021-03-03..latest&country=

Correction. UK excess mortality fell to -15% from 40% then when vaccination began mortality increased to around 5%.

@ Oakchair —

Better liars please.

Though you’re funny, I’ll give you that.

Jason wrote: “Vaccines – particularly ones without any prior real-world experience – should never be a predominant tool of resistance against a coronavirus, let alone the sole solution.”

I don’t disagree. But along with what you’ve just said, I hope you’re clear that in the cases of at least half the coronaviruses, there’s no effective herd immunity because they mutate so much that NO VACCINES AT ALL would have been possible — at least, as vaccines were classically understood.

So biotechnology was deployed — a genetically-engineered adenovirus vector vaccine for Oxford-AZ and Russia’s Sputnik V, mRNA in the cases of Moderna and Pfizer-BionTech — to target the spike protein that’s the mechanism by which the COVID19 virus invades our cells. The hope was that if there were COV19 variants in which the spike protein mutated, it wouldn’t be able to do its work (of invading our cells).

It was a big experiment. Which meant that nobody knew these ‘vaccines’ wouldn’t work as well as hoped once the delta variant emerged, nor that the lack of sterilizing immunity — and, again, to be clear, a lot of classical vaccines DON’T provide sterilizing immunity against their respective pathogens — would be consequential.

Now it turns out, given the delta variant, that the vaccines have been substantially oversold by TPTB and the PMC, who in varying degrees are now stuck with their propaganda since the virus and the vaccines having become politicized — not least by themselves — in their desire to return to neoliberal BAU.

This politicization — and consequent hysteria, as seen here from, forex, Oakchair, Metamars, and Janice — is a massive problem. Once upon a time it was understood (if sub rosa) that:

(a) Given the range of individual human response, in any scenario of large-scale vaccination there’d some small percentage of individuals who’d have adverse effects and, if the cross-section of the populace were large enough, a few people would die (my father is allergic to penicillin, FFS);

(b) Something like half of classical vaccines, IIRC, do not have sterilizing immunity.

Unfortunately, these points are hysterically politicized in a US society which, simultaneously, has near-universal internet access and is the most uneducated, ignorant population of any developed nation.

Says Mark Pontin:
This politicization — and consequent hysteria, as seen here from, forex, Oakchair, Metamars, and Janice — is a massive problem.

Ah-h-h-h, I’ve been trying to “follow the science” pretty much since Day 1, which is not surprising since 1) I am trained as a scientist (BA physics & math) and 2) I am a student of bad science in it’s many flavors, and different aspects of it’s corruption and dysfunction. See my sub-reddit r/bad_science_culture for a decent overview.

The corruption of science, and the bad faith, lack of transparency, and persistent lying by health authorities (WHO, CDC) and politicians, as well as censorship by Big Tech, has been SO BAD that not only has a large segment of the population woken up to this, but qualified dudes that delve into the science have made statements along the lines of “I wasn’t a conspiracy theorist, before, but something is very wrong” include:

Chris Martenson
Pierre Kory
Dr John Campbell

Of course, there are also others who have been fighting the corruption that is now laid bare, for decades, such as Robert F Kennedy, Jr, and Gary Null.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but you would also include these individuals in the “hysteria” category.

Because of politicization by others.

Yeah, right. Sure! I find your logic less than impeccable. Perhaps you should search for other alternative explanations, that would not be laughed at by the likes of Martenson, Kory, and Campbell?

When Dr. Mobeen Syed shows you a list of 3 recent youtube videos about ivermectin that have been deleted by youtube, and when Chris Martenson is reduced to calling ivermectin “wizibin 2” (as well as hydroxychloroquine “wizibin 1”), because of fear of getting deplatformed, they are not suffering from hysteria.

IN FACT, JUST RECENTLY DR JOSEPH MERCOLA DELETED HIS LIFE’S WORK OF ARTICLES FROM HIS WEBSITE.

He explains in “Why I Am Deleting All Content After 48 Hours” @ mercola dot com:

We are not living from the lessons we’ve learned before. Never in my life, would I believe the sitting President of the United States call out 12 Americans in a McCarthyism like attack in the United States. As you are aware, I was placed at the top of this list.

The last week has brought a tremendous amount of reflections to me, and a lot of unacceptable threats to a company full of amazing people that have helped me support you in this journey.

By now I am sure you know that there was a recent NY Times article attacking me and it was one of the most widely distributed stories in the world. The article was loaded with false statements made about me and my organization.

The report would be laughed at if it were to be submitted for peer review, the groups that created it are funded by dark money and operated by an illegal foreign agent. The press never questioned it, but ran with their orders from above.

I can deal with the CNN crews that chase me by car while I bicycle from my home. I feel sorry for the people in media that have to follow the orders they are given.

It is easy to dismiss the media pawns, but the most powerful individual on the planet has targeted me as his primary obstacle that must be removed. Every three letter agency is at his disposal, and the executive powers have grown beyond what an individual American’s rights can protect against.

A dissenter of medical mandates is now a target and obstacle to be removed. I know – that’s 25 years’ worth of blood, sweat and tears coming down.

For the crime of making it his life’s work to empower people, the world over, to “take charge of their health” with affordable interventions, this guy is now, apparently, in fear of political persecution enough to commit digital suicide.

You strike me as the kind of fool who, being a passenger on the Titanic, after being told by an engineer that it is probably going to sink, having struck an iceberg, prefers to take mental and emotional refuge in a trust of authorities, even as the boat starts to list.

“How could you fail to interpret this hour?”, asked Jesus.

Your cluelessness is of Biblical proportions.

Willy,

This isn’t the first or even the tenth time you’ve asked people to provide you evidence of X, saying you’ll think about it seriously if they do. When they actually make the effort to provide a proper response ( as I’ve done several times on your baseless hatred of Jimmy Dore, but others certain have sparred with you in similar pathways recently), you just ignore the meat of their argument and then proceed to attack them as bad people based on some other tiny sliver of information you picked up from their argument.

Anyone who really believes in universal vaccination can start by advocating for 5 days of paid sick leave (or $250/day for unemployed and still employed) no questions asked, for anyone who get two shots. The payment will be authorized by the administrator of the shots and be tracked by social security administration. And anyone (or their close family) who has a serious or fatal adverse reaction to the vaccine can seek compensation from the vaccine maker or the government. If they believe in the vaccines so much, they need to put their money where their mouthflaps are.

Absolutely. I agree with this. No lawyers though. An agreed upon amount should be determined to compensate them if the vaccine causes disability or death. I don’t want class action attorneys making multi-millions off of this.

But, I suspect you could do this, and America should and every country should, and the Vaccine Obstinate will still refuse to receive it. At that point, it’s stiff legal fines and even jail time.

…and, i’m scared.

Maybe you are but not these other goons. They have Ignorance & Ivermectin on their side.

Can you believe the wealthy elite are so stoopid they don’t know about the COVFEFE-45 Miracle Cure that is Ivermectin? They rule the world and they are able to do so because they are so stoopid. Be stoopid and be rich. That’s the key. Who would have thought?

I believe that a substantial number of negative reactions to these vaccines – including very serious ones – are not showing up in the datasets.

And you believe this why? Did IM Doc at NC influence you to believe this? If so, NC is engaging in…..

Misinformation

I don’t disagree. But along with what you’ve just said, I hope you’re clear that in the cases of at least half the coronaviruses, there’s no effective herd immunity because they mutate so much that NO VACCINES AT ALL would have been possible — at least, as vaccines were classically understood.

Yes, that’s abundantly clear Mark. I would suggest you think a bit more about your final sentence: “at least, as vaccines were classically understood.”

So biotechnology was deployed — a genetically-engineered adenovirus vector vaccine for Oxford-AZ and Russia’s Sputnik V, mRNA in the cases of Moderna and Pfizer-BionTech — to target the spike protein that’s the mechanism by which the COVID19 virus invades our cells. The hope was that if there were COV19 variants in which the spike protein mutated, it wouldn’t be able to do its work (of invading our cells).

Yes, that’s what happened. Thank you for reiterating.

It was a big experiment. Which meant that nobody knew these ‘vaccines’ wouldn’t work as well as hoped once the delta variant emerged, nor that the lack of sterilizing immunity — and, again, to be clear, a lot of classical vaccines DON’T provide sterilizing immunity against their respective pathogens — would be consequential.

Nobody knew? According the the media-saturated world, EVERYBODY KNEW. This is a complete rewriting of history, in the short space of less than a year.

By the way, it’s just the Delta variant? Is it your contention that the vaccines did provide a significant level of sterilizing immunity previously?

That isn’t an argument I’d make. I’d stick to telling people they prevent the most serious outcomes. And really, we don’t know how well they’ve done that because they were only rolled out eight months ago. We have no control to tell us what may have happened if we didn’t vaccinate at all.

The only vaccine that provides complete sterilizing immunity is the HPV vaccine., incidentally. As you say, most vaccines are not entirely sterilizing.

Now it turns out, given the delta variant, that the vaccines have been substantially oversold by TPTB and the PMC, who in varying degrees are now stuck with their propaganda since the virus and the vaccines having become politicized — not least by themselves — in their desire to return to neoliberal BAU.

They were oversold from the beginning, well before the delta variant emerged. All this harping on delta is a convenient sidetrack.

This politicization — and consequent hysteria, as seen here from, forex, Oakchair, Metamars, and Janice — is a massive problem. Once upon a time it was understood (if sub rosa) that:

(a) Given the range of individual human response, in any scenario of large-scale vaccination there’d some small percentage of individuals who’d have adverse effects and, if the cross-section of the populace were large enough, a few people would die (my father is allergic to penicillin, FFS);

I bolded the pertinent word. Now let’s go back to your own words from above:

“NO VACCINES AT ALL would have been possible — at least, as vaccines were classically understood…”

So biotechnology was deployed…The hope was that if there were COV19 variants in which the spike protein mutated, it wouldn’t be able to do its work (of invading our cells)”

A multi-billion dollar experiment launched on a wing and a prayer. Yet I’m the one who’s crazy for indulging in elementary skepticism.

Many here can easily be sold bridges again and again and again and again.

(b) Something like half of classical vaccines, IIRC, do not have sterilizing immunity.

Complete sterilizing immunity? The only one that’s even claimed for is HPV, that I’m aware. And that’s not even a traditional (classical) vaccine.

Has anyone ever considered that the mRNA technology itself might not be all it’s cracked up to be? We’re told the technology itself has been “in development for decades” yet anytime they’ve tried to put the technology to real-world use it hasn’t ended up well. All previous mRNA “vaccine” experiments were put on hold or stopped outright.

Yet even Brett Weinstein has to constantly assure us the technology itself is solid and has untold potential.

Okay.

Did IM Doc at NC influence you to believe this?

Yes, I only listen to IM Doc. I am unable to read and disseminate information myself. In fact, I find that if I curl up every night with a printout of IM Doc’s writings, I sleep much better. And my dreams lately, oh my dreams…

Now Furry Substack? I can’t handle those truths. PS’ brilliant unsealing of the otherwise esoteric realities of elite machinations gives me nightmares.

Soredemos, there is this thing called the Hippocratic Oath: first due no harm. Your IM Doc doesn’t know if, where, when, and with whom Ivermectin might have some benefit.

This is pure idiocy. One shouldn’t invoke the Hippocratic Oath in regards to rushing headlong into a “vaccination” campaign for a coronavirus using “vaccines” that aren’t in fact vaccines as we’ve always known them (as Mark Pontin has made clear…thank you Mark).

A doctor would only be “doing harm” using Ivermectin to prevent and/or treat covid if the patient had an adverse reaction to Ivermectin and the doctor ignored it.

I’m not aware of any doctors being called out for keeping their patients on Ivermectin when it was causing negative reactions. Are you? The question is rhetorical.

I should say at this point that I tried to avoid the over-concentration on Ivermectin in my initial post when I wrote this:

*The specific name that comes to mind is Ivermectin, though there are entire treatment protocols being used around the world that may or may not include Ivermectin as part of their regimen.

In keeping with Hugh’s interpretation of the Hippocratic Oath, I suppose we should shut these protocols down immediately – via Hugh’s beloved human intervention if necessary – and get down to the all-important business of getting shots in arms. That’s science and medicine, baby.

A new term for these COVFEFE-45 times.

Closet Vaccinators.

Is Jason one? We know the dashing McDonald Trump is. He’s vaccinated on the Down Low.

Astrid:
When they actually make the effort to provide a proper response…

False. I didn’t see anybody here in this thread providing clear examples. All I saw was random and silly knee-jerk judgement, all too common.

“baseless hatred of Jimmy Dore”

I did once recommend Dore. But that was before Majority Report, Young Turks, Vaush, and most other public progressives questioned his continuous attacks against their fellows serving in congress. Not only is Jimmy Dore not intelligent, he is not our friend:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvWpZPXvlM4

If you can’t get through this 20 minute video, then watch for a few minutes starting at around 10:15. Do remember that Kulinski is one of the most calmly reasonable prog voices we have. Observe Dore’s behavior. Is this the behavior of a friend?

Boris Johnson. Vladimir Putin. Cher. Russell Wilson. Xi Jinping. Michael Jordan. Danny Divito. Kareem Abdul Jabbar. Queen Elizabeth. David Attenborough. Dolly Parton. Hugh Jackman. Greta Thunberg. Morgan Freeman. Buzz Aldrin. Louie Anderson. Pope Francis. Dalai Lama. Steven King. Steve Martin. Gloria Steinem. Richard Petty. Bibi Netanyoohoo. Jair Bolsonaro. Narendra Modi. Ali Khamenei. Erdogan. Gandalf.

I’m not saying that neoliberal Big Pharma is that strong. It’s obvious. I’m saying that none of these people have bitched about their shots, yet. And I’d assume that any of them can afford good lawyers.

PS, I thought the elite got a special “vaccine” we’re not aware of. You hypothesized that a while back, remember?

I never thought that. Not sure why you’re lying. On second thought, it’s obvious why you’re lying. You’re Astrid’s husband.

Indeed. A decent society or culture would take the likes of a “Plague Species” out back and shoot him.

Instead of letting him vent as a free citizen with free speech in a free country? Authoritarianism, much?

Willy,

I’ve read and listened to Dore through plenty of his spats, including with Kulinsky. Dore is the one who makes sense to me, he sticks to simple, comon sense ideas and don’t wander off into false equivalencies. He is a loud mouth comedian who is speaking truth to power, the rest are has-beens corrupted by the teeny amount of power and money that they were given access to.

As for your act. I don’t think anyone took your bait on this thread, but it’s been done many times and it is dishonest. It makes me think much less of you than I once did.

We keep coming back to the same place. The anti-vaxxers are just going to believe what they believe. They don’t need facts or are perfectly capable of making up their own.

They demand that vaccines be beyond perfect. Not they would take them even then. At the same time, they promote taking whatever rumor mill “treatment” no testing, no questions asked, jus cuz.

To them, this is “real” science. And even after 600,000 dead in the US because of their idiocy, they take no responsibility for those dead, they blow them off without a second thought and double down on more of their murderous, obscene nuttery.

After dozens of posts, Jason finally admitted that he’s gotten the vax, implying he’s not an anti-vaxxer, just a vax-skeptic, because they come from
Big Pharma. I don’t have a problem with that.

If anything comes from all this nonsense, it should be a greater appreciation for Big Power’s ability to do whatever it takes at whatever level, to remain Big Power.

What a miracle worker I am. I’m barely part of society and yet I am still capable of sowing division.

https://regmorrison.edublogs.org/1999/07/20/plague-species-the-spirit-in-the-gene/

Despite the astonishing behavioral flexibility that has steered this maladapted primate so adroitly through some 2.5 million hazardous years, the animal is still vulnerable in the way that all animals are vulnerable: through its adaptive specialisations. By endowing the human brain with its language facility, evolution has ensured that human genes will continue to bypass the cerebral cortex at will, disguising fact with ‘significance’ and turning imagination into perceived fact. This prodigious talent for spiritualising its perceptions seems certain to keep this sapient primate safely sequestered from reality and well within reach of the biosphere’s standard forms of population control.

My wife’s mother lives with my wife’s sister and her husband versus being in a nursing home. My wife’s mother is 95. She can no longer attend church, she’s Roman Catholic, so they have the priest come say a mass for her every now and then and administer the Holy Eucharist. After administering mass yesterday, the priest informed them all they should not receive the vaccine because it is the Mark of the Beast. True story. Reg wouldn’t be surprised to hear it just as I’m not surprised to hear, or see Jason type that he “believes” a substantial number of negative reactions to these vaccines – including very serious ones – are not showing up in the datasets.

Belief is the magic by which imagination is turned into fact very much like the priest turns water into wine.

Are you serious.? Someone threatens to take me out back and shoot me and you don’t moderate that but instead you moderate my last two comments. That’s fair & balanced.

Ian has said it right here. Intelligence doesn’t come from IQ or memory or any measured abstract reasoning ability. It comes from the ability to manage painful emotions which come from having certain thoughts, for the purpose of getting to the truth, ones own emotions be damned.

I think you guys are a bit over-enamored of Ian. Look, I enjoy his writing, but it isn’t gospel. I have to imagine Ian, being a smart guy, knows this.

Now, do you honestly believe that Ian’s definition is THE end-all, be-all? I can’t imagine Ian himself believes that. It would make him an entirely self-absorbed egomaniac. It would also close the door on further inquiry into one’s own ideas. That’s the definition of stupidity, not intelligence.

Now, do you honestly believe that Ian’s definition is THE end-all, be-all?

This may be news to you, but nobody is perfect. For the record, I believe in things like batting averages and spectrums. And that a messy liberal democracy is the best we’ve got. At least until AI takes over.

Do you have any other black/white traits you’d like to paste onto me?

Someone threatens to take me out back and shoot me

No, you get some startup seeds to start your own community of fellow travelers. That’s it though. You’re on your own.

And please stay away from us. We’re rebuilding something special here.

We have no more use for you than you do for us.

Perhaps, after a period of separation, we’ll decide that we can all live together, we can try again.

Absence makes the heart grow stronger.

I believe Plague Species already declared that I work at the Army War College for the Mossad and evidently I’m married to this Mr. Jones. I guess I better break the news to my husband that I’m an internet bigamist, but he likes the paychecks so it’ll even out.

Hugh is certain I’m working for the Chinese hasbara, which sounds like one of those interesting Chinese joint ventures where they suck out all the intellectual property of their partner before kicking them out. I need to make sure I get some voting shares so I can stay in the venture and profit.

Different clue recently added a bunch of stuff about me being a hall monitor in school, something something booger picking, and definitely secret Chinese, whatever the hell that means. As noted above, I’m pretty busy already, so I guess this is more of a gig economy thing. Good to know I have this to fall back on if the Israelis discovered all the pro-Palestinian stuff that I’ve said and written all my life.

It’s not harassment or projection if they do it. And little things like Plague Species saying that the Chinese shouldn’t have any children or use any fossil fuel is totally cool, but a common turn of phrase is all of a sudden a death threat. But pointing out evidence that all the allegations about Uighur genocide are baseless lies from known liars gets me called a genocide denier. Pointing out evidence that there’s no actual or circumstantial evidence showing Woody Allen sexually abused anyone, beyond what Mia Farrow claimed a 4 year old child said, gets me called a rape denier.

And of course none of them actually read what people directly respond then with. That’s why Plague Species is yelling about auto moderation again, even though Ian personally explained the setup to him several times that I can recall.

Such elevated minds we have gracing us!

Are you serious.?

Deadly serious.

Someone threatens to take me out back and shoot me and you don’t moderate that but instead you moderate my last two comments.

Who here believes “Plague Species” read Rebecca’s post as a literal threat to take him out back and shoot him?

That’s fair & balanced.

Free speech isn’t always fair and balanced. Just ask Willy.

Astrid, it’s Mr Jones, not Mr. Jones. Keep the socks straight.

The crazies took over this thread a long time ago.

Rebecca you said this upthread:
I don’t know if you know Willy personally or if he’s just an online presence in your life, but I think you ought to reevaluate. Willy’s a nut job. Show me who your friends are and I’ll show you who you are. Online friends (sad) or not.
Ian, these guys are a brutal combination of flighty, featherbrained, and just plain strange – and not in a good way, like “Keep Vermont Weird” or something similar.

And then you said this later:

You do it to yourself, Willy, You’re the black-white guy, and you don’t even know it. Sad.

Why would anybody in their right mind take you seriously?

Why would anybody in their right mind take you seriously?

I don’t think people with your conception of a “right mind” will take me seriously. I’m fine with that.

I saw Malcolm Nance on Stephanie Miller. He’s a former military intelligence officer.

He said that the Trump right is backed by multiple billionaires financing a massive disinformation machine, built entirely for their own personal benefit, operating at all levels. He said that if Stephanie Miller was a conservative instead of a progressive, that she’d be operating out of a multi-million dollar studio instead of her home office.

Rich conservatives have turned Dave Rubin, Tim Pool, Candace Owens, and now Dimmy Jour, as continuously evidenced by a great many honest progressives. I would think real progressives should be concerned about that.

I also once had a libertarian friend.

She approached me on our neighborhood Nextdoor network. She initiated brief private messages which became lengthy emails, back and forth, then lunch together. We seemed to have everything in common. All the same interests and attitudes and life experiences. She laughed at all my jokes. She freely gave out hugs and tasty treats.
She cared about the world.

She agreed with all my takes on politics.

This was 2015. She invited me to what I’d thought was a local community meeting against some local government overreach regarding a specific local issue. The place was full of hundreds of Trumpers. During the cheering, hooting, hollering spots, she was amongst the loudest of the cheering hooting hollerers. Then she steered me over me to a table to sign up for what I’d thought was for that specific issue which I actually went there for. It wasn’t. What they didn’t say, what I didn’t know until I started getting all their spam, was that this was for some idiotic freedumb patriot newsletter.
The whole time she’d lied to me, just to entice me into her cult.

This is how they roll. They know that being straight-up honest about obviously failed policy won’t win them converts. So they lie. They use disinformation. They gaslight. They pretend to be your new best friend. They get you to hate people from your own side. If you quibble, they unleash sockpuppets armed with ad hominem attacks, while accusing you of ad hominem attacks. This is how they roll.

This is why I comment as I do, armies of nonsensical sockpuppets be damned.

A good way to get more people to get jabbed with the biotechnology would be to immediately eliminate the liability waiver granted to the Pharma companies.

Is anyone here against that?

Meanwhile, interesting actions taking place behind the scenes:

Quietly last month OSHA and other agencies changed their ruling for employer required vaccines. Previously the employer was responsible for any health issues / side effects with their employees re: vaccine and was required to record and report them.

Now, it has been changed to “promote vaccinations”

OSHA does not wish to have any appearance of discouraging workers from receiving COVID-19 vaccination, and also does not wish to disincentivize employers’ vaccination efforts. As a result, OSHA will not enforce 29 CFR 1904’s recording requirements to require any employers to record worker side effects from COVID-19 vaccination through May 2022

Um, I have a question about that….

THERE IS NOTHING TO SEE HERE! Please move on.

https://www.osha.gov/coronavirus/faqs#vaccine

https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2021/08/links-8-6-2021.html#comment-3585247

A good way to get more people to get jabbed with the biotechnology would be to immediately eliminate the liability waiver granted to the Pharma companies.

I dont know the details but finally, a reasonable point. See how easy that was?

Beware the quiet ones, Willy. Beware the quiet ones.

I like your use of “we” in the question when you’re the one asking. I also appreciate the gentle curiosity inherent in the opening of the query “So, we’re to assume….

Good stuff, Willy. Good stuff.

I dont know the details

Uh huh. They’re, ah, not hard to find.

but finally, a reasonable point.

The point has been made previously. Many times.

Sorry about that Jason. But you comment so profusely on Covid threads, and I’m pretty busy (excepting today), that I don’t follow everything you say.

No sockpuppets allowed in my discussion, scottie.

Don’t be shy Rebecca. Tell us what you believe in. What do think is the progressives best course of action regarding covid, vaccines, the government and Big Pharma?

But you comment so profusely on Covid threads, and I’m pretty busy (excepting today), that I don’t follow everything you say.

I’ve personally only mentioned it here one other time, I believe. Many other people have brought it up many times over the preceding months.

I guess you missed it. All those other times.

Oh, and you’re pretty busy, except today?

Okay Willy.

I run my own business, where I’m usually out in the field. For the next two weeks starting tomorrow my free time will likely be scarce.

Can we agree to be more about the ideas instead of the personal nonsense? There are other places one can go for that sort of crap.

Rebecca, I care about the ideas, which is why I’m here. If you want a date with somebody you can abuse, there are other places for that.

Do you have anything to offer, ideawise, for the few remaining readers, willing to learn more about dealing with covid?

I don’t know why people don’t like these threads. I understand that if they ended up like this all the time, it’d be a nightmare. But this is funny! You have to dissociate yourself from everything. It’s rollicking a good time.

Rebecca’s not ready to go to sleep yet!

I’m out.

No Astrid. I don’t believe in any Uyghur genocide. I do believe that a significant proportion of Uyghurs have been herded into re-education camps, and that the evidence is far more overwhelming than any TGZ “debunking”.

I’ve offered contrary opinions with evidence, but you yourself never debate over any of the details preferring to instead accuse me of doing the same.

Jason, I’ve basically come to agree with some of your points, right here on this very thread.

Are they suddenly wrong now because I agree with them?

Are they suddenly wrong now because I agree with them?

Strange question. Are you asking me for yourself, Willy?

I don’t think I’ve posted any “ideas” that are unique to me. Thank you for the compliment, though.

Sorry Willy. You didn’t use the word “ideas.” You used “points.”

The answer is the same. The “points” I make are simply distilled versions of larger points made by people much more knowledegable about the subject.

These same “points” are made by countless others. Please don’t give me any undue credit.

Here are the survival rates that include low symptomatic people per age group according to the CDC. NR decided he should cherry pick out low symptomatic cases.
Ages 0-19. 99.997%
Ages 20-49. 99.98%
Ages 50-69. 99.5%
Over 70. 94.6%

Also compared with people who have a “normal” BMI those with higher BMI have a 2.68-4.18 increased risk for Covid mortality. People with a normal BMI aged 20-49 have around a 0.005% chance of dying from catching Covid.

https://www.nbc26.com/news/coronavirus/cdc-estimates-covid-19-fatality-rate-including-asymptomatic-cases

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32783686/

Dore says most of the right stuff in most of the right ways, which is what drew me in. But his routine attacks on the very few DC progressives we have, as a matter of some ‘tough love’ principle or whatever he’ thinks he’s doing, turned me off.

My logic is that this would be like attacking the few decent players one has on their home town baseball team, because they can’t always carry the team to victory. It’s irrational, when more good players are needed. Does Dore recommend who these new players should be, to be primaried against the many well-funded corporate Dems who stand in their way?

Our few progressives only have so much power because of the incredible wealth and power which is arrayed against them and because the way American national politics works. I believe they need support, not attacks which smear their character and demoralize their resolve. AOC could easily quit to get a lucrative lobbying job or have babies or do the mulch in her suburban landscape. Is that what Dore wants?

Dore attacks “progressives” because their actions show they are not actually progressive. Fake progressives who kick left and apologize for Pelosi ARE WORTHLESS.

Jason: ‘Nobody knew? According the the media-saturated world, EVERYBODY KNEW. This is a complete rewriting of history, in the short space of less than a year.’

Horse manure. Very simply, in the first half of 2020 when the pandemic emerged, there was a perceived potential for 1-2 percent of the global population dying from the original COVID19 variant — — and rhetoric about a ‘complete rewriting of history’ and ‘media-saturated world’ is irrelevant to that actual historic reality we all lived through.

So preventative solutions were desperately sought. Various more or less experimental biotechnologies were pulled out of the back room, rapidly adapted, and deployed. That adapted biotech had high efficacy with the original COVID19 virus — and has indeed greatly ameliorated fatality rates — so was promoted as THE one-stop solution, both because there’s a natural human desire for one-stop solutions to large-scale mortal problems and because our neoliberal masters wanted a return to global neoliberal BAU as soon as possible.

So that was the hope. Nobody knew anything about the delta variant — obviously, because it didn’t exist yet — and almost everybody hoped for the best for whatever reasons, ordinary human or neolib predatory. Again, rhetoric about ‘media-saturated world’ has nothing to do with that actual lived reality back in 2020.

Also, do you rely on the mainstream media for accurate information about anything? They’re capitalist propaganda organs and you shouldn’t. I don’t and I used to be a journalist — full disclosure here — for outlets like MIT Technology Review. That meant I’d some knowledge of the mRNA technology because Moderna was created by a VC partnership heavily composed of MIT-affiliated bioengineers and I did some copy-writing work, essentially, for some ag-bio companies they started.

So I’ve a little insight on what actually went on at Moderna. My impression is that everybody at the VC partnership hoped and — on the evidence prior to the emergence of delta — expected the best for the mRNA vaccines. Indeed, l’ll provide a little insider baseball. The people at Moderna originally had to fight the head honcho there, who’s this charmer —
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noubar_Afeyan
— because he pounded on the table and shouted, “I will NEVER allow the Moderna technology to be used as a vaccine!”

And Afeyan took that position because the mRNA technology was originally being developed as a high-end, expensive personalized treatment for cancer and some other things, and he wanted to keep it as that. He changed that position because (a) hilariously, the US government made a multi-billion-dollar market for him and (b) Fauci and the NIAID had worked with Moderna for a decade of unprofitability and forced him to. (And Fauci and the NIAID had done that because, among other reasons, Big Pharma considers vaccine development unprofitable.)

Jason: ‘A multi-billion dollar experiment launched on a wing and a prayer. ‘

Sure. And perfectly reasonable, too: again, we were plausibly looking at a potential global fatality rate of of 1-2 percent.

Jason: ‘They were oversold from the beginning, well before the delta variant emerged. ‘

I actually wouldn’t disagree. I’m on record here as saying the adenovirus vector route was the preferable one since it was far more portable, less expensive (the high-tech that produces the lipid nanoparticles for the mRNA vaccines, and the high-tech to produce _that_ high-tech is bleeding-edge expensive) and was something that there was more knowledge about, especially among Russian scientists (who are no slouches).

But what I and you may argue for on the internet in terms of policy has, of course, absolutely zero effect in reality. On that note, time for lunch.

Dore’s a blessing and a curse. He’s the only one straight calling out the pols for everything at this point. He takes absolutely no bullshit and he airs all their bullshit brilliantly – better than anyone.

But, he can’t go five minutes without invoking himself. I understand it’s a comedy show and that’s his whole persona – he tells us as much himself – but it’s nevertheless unbearable at times, and It’s gotten progressively worse since I began watching him last spring.*

He’s also obviously a total hypocrite when it comes to Fox News, “Tucker” and all that nonsense. Just call them out, too, Jimmy. Be consistent. But he won’t do that, because he enjoys being on “Tucker.” I am glad the message gets out, obviously, and I understand that’s the idea: spread the message wherever you can. And I realize too that he doesn’t get invited on the CNN’s of the world.

I don’t know how much of an impact it ultimately has. The message may get lost in the overall milieu of Fox. That still doesn’t in and of itself mean you don’t go on. But if you know that there’s a lot of stuff that you disagree with “Tucker” on and you also know that you can’t call those things out with the same ferocity as you do others, if at all…Well, then how are you any different from the pieces of shit you rightfully call out? Takes one to know one, I guess.

All that said, I have yet to see anyone step up and create an informational show that uses the techniques Jimmy uses, sans the language, personalities, and other bullshit. I’ve said in the past that some of Jimmy’s videos could be used in a classroom if they were cleaned up. They are a wonderful breakdown of the daily lies and distortions of the political class and their masters and cronies.

*Some of the shows last spring with Hedges, Ratigan, and others were brilliant. I remember Matt Stoller – who’s usually a bore – coming on late one night, probably had a drink or a few, and going off a bit on some behind the scenes stuff when he was working on Bernie’s payroll. He said that the political class in Washington laughs at Bernie – they don’t take him seriously. He’s not a threat and never has been. But they’d actually be scared of an Elizabeth Warren – if she were really serious about her proposals, as opposed to her political career.