This is what Trump said he’d do, and he’s doing it. While I appreciate politicians keeping their promises, this is something I think is wrong on its merits. I’ll second this suggestion, with respect to the green card holders being denied entry:
Canada should take them in. This is an act of terrorism and we shouldn’t stand by and do nothing to help its victims.https://t.co/BhawIYXDSh
— Mr. Sinister (@mrsinisterlefty) January 28, 2017
I note that if the intention was to punish sponsors of terrorism, the ban should have hit Saudi Arabia and Egypt, which is where the money and the actual 9/11 terrorists mostly came from.
I have long thought that Canada, and many other countries, could easily benefit from American xenophobia. People are an asset, and it is only in sickly nations, economies, and cultures where they are viewed as a liability.
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Tom
They’re better off in Canada than in the US or Europe. America has a rough few decades of political turmoil to get through as the Democrats implode and the Deep State wars with the Trump Wing of the Republicans.
Pelham
People are an asset, yes, but an asset to whom and which classes in a society? Remember, under capitalism human beings are commodities.
It’s also true that diversity in a population leads to increasing dysfunction, as Robert Putnam’s work has shown. Admitting immigrants or refugees from different cultures brings an array of benefits and imposes an array of costs, the former of which are easily measured and the latter of which are more difficult to gauge. The considerable costs are, nonetheless, real and tend to grow over time, again, as Putnam’s studies confirm.
John
Of course the traitorous Americans will abandon all the little people Iraqis and Afghanis who helped them. Meanwhile the Saudis have free access to screw with us as much as they want.
Holden Pattern
Except those are countries where Trump does business or wants to do business.
This is vile.
dude
My wife told me about something the other night that has been picked up by Asian media. Trump saves his most villifying rhetoric for people (nations) of color and by contrast promotes better relations with the only known white nation we typically have a beef with: Russia.
The Muslim ban is directed toward a religion, but that religion’s adherents would be stereotyped as non-white by most Americas, and possibly many Asians as well. Similarly, he has picked a trade fight with China and Mexico. He is especially critical of Mexican and South American immigrants. He was derogatory of Japan during the campaign. He shook up NATO for a time with his remarks, but I think his rhetoric toward European nations is (for him) much more diplomatic and guarded–he is using bargaining talk to get a better deal for financing NATO. PM May suggested that yesterday.
So the Asian press also notes the Saudi exception (and Qatar and few others) and is trying to make sense of that in terms of their original premise. We prefer to say those Arab-speaking nations are entitled to special treatment owing to global oil strategy.
Speaking the Press and media coverage: Besides internet reading, I try to catch NHK everyday, BBC almost everyday, and presently Link TV is running Deutsche Welle and France 24. It is good to get some other perspective once-in-a-while. It is nice to know other places consider other things important!
BlizzardOfOz
Oh, brother. This is why I’ve basically given up. There’s no amicable solution between those who want to import the 3rd world, and those who want our countries to remain predominantly European. We see agitating for mass immigration as treasonous. There will be blood …
Amerikaner
“People are an asset”
Imagine being so deluded that you actually think a massive shift toward third-world demographics would make america a better place. People are people man! If you don’t allow your country to be over run with strangers that means you are weak. What?
But sure, let’s import massive numbers of unskilled immigrants to do jobs that won’t even exist in a decade. i see no possible way this could backfire.
Amazing.
Ché Pasa
White Supremacy is fundamental to the Trumpian conception.
Ian Welsh
If, in your country, people are not an asset, your country is sick. When you are able to understand this you will have a flicker of understanding of what is actually wrong with the developed world.
StewartM
People are an asset, Ian is right. And the world doesn’t need more babies, the world needs to reshuffle its demographics.
But I can still see more acts of terrorism arising from this, to give Trump a shred of credence, because we will likely treat them worse than we treat our own natives, which is bad enough. And these new immigrants will watch as we continue to blow their countries up; because as ‘everyone knows’ they’re all “radical Islamic terrorists” or the like.
Mandos
The irony is that the people most affected are the best integrated immigrants, not the “unskilled labourers from the third world” of white supremacist fantasy.
Heliopause
It should be pointed out that U.S.’s refugee policy was already the embarrassment of the developed world under Obama, Trump has simply made it a bit worse.
Mandos
Instead of “giving up”, you could instead…choose otherwise. Choose not to prefer a predominant ethnic background as the majority in the arbitrary boundaries of a state, for example. That’s a choice you could make, rather than “giving up” and expecting to see blood.
Pelham
Again, added people are an asset TO WHOM?
Everyone? Unlikely. The little research that has been done into the subject finds that mixing together people of diverse cultural backgrounds creates societal dysfunction. And the more diversity you have, the worse the problem. And the longer diversity persists, the deeper the dysfunction. (At some level I suspect our elites know this and it serves as the driving reason behind their decisions to resettle refugees far, far away from population centers where elites dwell or congregate.)
This is what the research reveals. This is the science. Deny the facts if you will, but this is what we know.
That said, it’s also true that adding people tends to boost a nation’s GDP. But the benefits of increased GDP tend to accrue to the upper classes while the costs are borne by the rest of society. If you believe in trickle-down economics, you can make a case that in the long run, everyone benefits. But that’s a famous stretch.
Obviously, I’m an immigration skeptic. But I do concede that in gross terms, benefits from immigration are evident. However, all policies have costs and benefits, and I would have more respect for those who argue on behalf of immigration and refugees if they acknowledged the significant costs as well as the gains they believe outweigh those costs.
Amerikaner
Be Mandos
Come to a white country
Enjoy all the opportunities and high living standards that his people can’t produce
Start telling the locals that they need to put the interests of foreigners (like himself) before their own kind
Dress this up in universalist moral garbage to hide his blanant self serving motivations
Rinse and repeat
Mandos
Like I said. That viewpoint is a choice. That metaphysical belief that the presence of those not like you in some characteristic is a theft from you is a choice.
I was born in a Western country and believe more in its historic values than you do clearly, who holds a worldview similar to some of the people in countries you appear to detest.
atcooper
Integration, as it’s being proposed, quit happening some time ago. It’s largely a fantasy of the well to do so that they can feel ok about abandoning their hometowns and going to the city. As though a one world order were a real possibility and not just more utopian thought.
No, integration isn’t even happening anymore. We’ve got enclaves of ethnicities unconcerned with the costs of citizenship, an unwillingness to fit in. It’s a giant ‘separate, but equal’ solution.
Meaning the civil rights era was largely a failure, and the Democratic Party would do well to get that through their skulls.
atcooper
Call it hometown anxiety.
I’d wondered for years the popularity of the truck in large Texas cities, where rarely are things ever hauled, and most of them have never ridden a horse. Buncha wanna be cowboys.
atcooper
Forced busing was never going to work, for instance. What needs to happen is changing the way schools get funded, a much larger, but necessary, order.
Amerikaner
You are correct, it is a choice in values. And I have chosen to remain loyal to my people and race.
I actually agree with you that much of what has become known as “Western” values needs to be scrapped for my people to survive and that perhaps we could learn from other groups in this regard. We need a total reorientation of our worldview, away from the liberal-Christain-universalist one that is currently hegemonic.
Remaining loyal to these old ideas is sucidal for my people in the “globalized” world.
The mistake you make is to think that you can have Western values and norms without Whites. You can’t. You don’t think there is a biological basis to this civilization. But there is and always will be.
different clue
Trump’s list of 7 countries under “visitor suspension” for now only makes sense in terms of Holden Pattern’s theory from up above. Whether it is Trump’s own bussiness greed or more likely the Grima Wormtounging in his ear from representatives of the Clintonite-McCainiac establishment ( more likely in my view), the short-term ban leaves us open to visitors from the most dangerous sources of Cannibal Liver Eating Jihadi terrorism . . . pits of cultural filth and disease like Saudi Arabia and Qatar and to-a-lesser-extent Egypt. And also all the Muslim CLEJs from all the European countries.
While visitors from a country posing exactly zero risk, namely Iran, are banned for now.
Dude’s wife is correct to note the stupid primitivity of Trump’s thinking and rhetoric on our Free Trade Enemies. China, Mexico, Bangladesh, etc. are not the “source” of the problem. The “source” of the problem is the OverClass and its International Free Trade Conspirators in power in America and elsewhere. China, Mexico, Bangladesh, etc. are merely the places where the Free Trade Conspirators installed production platforms from which to launch economic aggression and attrition back into the United States in order to degrade and attrit economic production and activity within the United States.
The election of Trump gives us an opportunity to discuss these things and start to discover who the enemy is and who the enemy is not. Tony Wikrent and Acres USA ( Charles Walters) have something useful to say here. I really wish Tony Wikrent and people he knows would begin building up a Thread Presence over at Naked Capitalism, where way many more people would see Wikrent than will ever see Wikrent here.
different clue
About bringing mass quantities of Moar Peepul . . . there has to be a race-neutral ethnically-neutral way to point up the problem with that.
Let me try . . . Everyone here has heard of “too much of a good thing”. People are a good thing. Immigrants are people and people are a good thing. Too many immigrants means too many people which is too much of a good thing.
The more people we let in, the more people we will have. The more people we have, the more we have to share. The more we have to share, the less we get to have. We got a good thing going here. We don’t need nobody else coming in here to muscle in on our racket, see?
The relentless march of man made global heating means that the limits of Ian Welsh’s belief that people are an asset will be tested within Canada over the next 80 years or so.
When Mexico and Central America and most of the USA become physically non-survivable due to man-killing heat, something close to 400 million people will try packing into the Northernmost Tier of the USA and into Canada beyond that. No amount of electrified razor wire and minefields will keep all those people out. Canada can build all the Beautiful Walls it wants to and three hundred million angry hungry thirsty people will over-run those Beautiful Walls. The Canadians will be able to decide whether three hundred million new people is still an asset . . . or whether three hundred million new people is too much of a good thing.
bigorangecat
@dude Russia is NOT a white nation. It has dozens of different ethnic groups and is one of the most multicultural nations in the world. Crack open a fucking book meat.
adsofij
This isn’t a muslim ban, it’s a ban of people who were born in certain countries. It paints the high skill immigrant who integrates with same brush as the low skill immigrant. It throws the baby out with the bathwater.
It also creates a lot more resistance. Companies know this is the start and it will hurt them a lot. and it could induce many American companies to move out a lot of operations out of the USA, because a whole bunch of key staff would disappear.
Frank Stain
@Pelham
Where is this ‘research’ you speak of? There is a burgeoning body of scientific evidence that the presence of increasing numbers of immigrants in large cities is in fact one of the central reasons for the significant drop in crime in those cities in recent decades. Many studies have found a correlation between the increasing presence of immigrants and the decreasing levels of crime. It appears that immigrants stabilize a neighborhood, allowing for future economic stability and growth.
http://nymag.com/scienceofus/2016/08/immigration-is-probably-the-best-way-to-fight-crime.html
I always find it interesting to observe that people who are naturally on the very xenophobic end of the Xenophobia/Xenophilia scale lack the self-awareness to recognize their own extreme positioning with relation to everybody else. In any given population, including present-day USA, the opinions of the entire population (just like IQ) is organized like a bell curve. At one end, you have the extreme xenophobes , i..e people like Amerikaner. Extreme xenophobes always make the mistake of thinking their preferences are shared by everyone else. But they are in fact at the extreme right end of the scale. In the mushy middle, you’ve got the great mass of average people who get freaked out when constantly exposed to stories about outgroup crime, but generally don’t really have strong opinions. At the other end of the scale, utterly imperceptible to people like Amerikaner and Pelham, are the extreme xenophiles , who actually prefer a world in which there is considerable diversity of thought, ideas, peoples, languages, etc. Many of these people also enjoy foreign travel, and read books about far away cultures.
The reason for the Xenophobia/Xenophilia bell curve can be gleaned from evolutionary considerations. There are dangers for human survival from both too much outbreeding, and too much outbreeding. Xenophobes exist to protect against too much outbreeding. This is why, on the far right, you find continual obsessions about infection, and very visceral fears about the danger of swapping blood and saliva with outgroup populations. This is why xenophobes freak out about things like Ebola. It is also why Adolf Hitler and Donald Trump both have/had extreme issues with cleanliness and guarding against the transmission of germs. It’s also why they cast their enemies as ‘parasites’. On the other end of the scale, the xenophiles in a culture guard against too much inbreeding, with its dangers of genetic diseases and weak protection against potential infections. Failure to cope with fairly mild infections has, of course, wiped out entire civilizations in the past.
The spread of ‘post-materialist’ values in western societies in recent decades has exacerbated this split. The Xenophiles are content with a world in which the free flow of people and ideas is not constrained by the parochial pull of tribal affiliations. Tribal affiliations (nation, ethnic group, gender, etc) simply constrain the individual search for free association and free self-definition. Xenophobes, on the other hand, regard such a world as an abomination. But if I’m right that Xenophilia is attuned to the values of a post-materialist society, I don’t really see much hope for Xenophobes hoping to turn back the clock.
realitychecker
Well, Frank, I guess if New York Mag says so, we can just flush down the toilet all those scholarly studies I’ve read in the past that argued that the reduction in crime over the same time period was primarily due to the cessation of use of lead paint.
I’m also a bit skeptical about your Xenophobia scale and your novel-sounding interpretation of the societal/evolutionary “purpose” of each extreme on that scale.
Got any more supporting data? (You said it was “burgeoning.”)
Stirling S Newberry
This is one of Ian’s favorite sayings: ” you dance with the ones who brought you”. The Internet companies did not generally vote for Trump – the yahoos in flyover land did. So it is not surprising that the yahoos in flyover land got what they wanted.
wendy davis
‘Trump, it seems, will not ban all Muslims. He’ll only ban Muslims whose countries and homes we are bombing.’
http://bit.ly/2kx4fGa
Frank Stain
@ realitychecker:
I think you will find that the lead paint hypothesis refers to an earlier period (from the 60s onward) The immigration hypothesis is more recent. If you read the article, you’ll see NewYorkMag is quoting a series of studies, not simply offering their own opinion.
Also, you might be interested to know that there’s this thing, in actual reality, called the ‘World Values Survey’. Since 1981, this survey has asked about 300,000 people around the world to place themselves on the left/right spectrum. When they do so, it turns out, the left-right spectrum is like a bell curve. The Xenophobia-Xenophilia split is simply one dimension of the spectrum that can be discerned from the World Values Survey.
All of this consists of discernible elements of reality which you might perhaps have checked yourself before posing your question.
sid_finster
Early XX Century American cities had loads of immigrants, so I guess that they must have been phenomenally, exceptionally low-crime.
I have no particular beef with immigrants, but this looks like someone is mining the data pretty hard to get a desired result.
realitychecker
@ Frank Stain
Don’t get tight, I was just asking; since you said “burgeoning” I reasonably figured you had at least one ‘burgeon-load” at your fingertips. IF YOU DON’T, YOU DON’T, but given your deman for further data from the prior commenter, I figured you probably did. As to doing the research myself, weeeeeell, it’s YOUR theory, Frank..
But I do recall reading the prior lead paint studies, and you will have to concede that, at the least, there is a considerable time overlap during which the noted effects on crime were or might be attributable to that lead paint thingy.
Curiously enough, the left-wing rag you linked to makes no mention WHATSOEVER of the portion of the noted crime reduction that might or ought to be properly attributable to the absence of lead paint.
But, worthy of note, is this from your linked article:
“While no one knows precisely why the national crime rate has cratered in the past 30 years . . .”
No one knows. Does that sound conclusive enough to you, Frank?
Just wondering.
Pelham
@Frank Stain
Yes, immigrants in general are less crime-prone. That’s a valid measure, but just one.
What Harvard sociologist Robert Putnam found in communities with greater cultural diversity was that important cultural connections tended to break down.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_D._Putnam
People tended not to know and to actively distrust their neighbors more so than in communities with less diversity. They tended to join civic organizations less, stay at home more and participate in government less. Moreover, the longer a community had been culturally diverse, the graver the consequences were.
Putnam, a typical liberal, was so disturbed by his findings that he initially refused to publish them in the US. But the results were entirely unambiguous: Diversity is not a strength, as many would like to believe, but a weakness. And it wasn’t so much a matter of xenophobia as simply a measure of what most people in relaxed moments feel at ease with. It’s one thing to visit an exotic land and truly appreciate and admire the local culture. It’s entirely another to live with a different culture day to day — though many do, as in the case of American retirees who move to Mexico or Central America.
I imagine there are plenty of people who don’t mind this sort of thing. If you are one, congratulate yourself. You are in a lovely minority. But many prefer living in a more homogeneous society, and I’d venture to say that probably applies as much to other countries as it does to ours. It certainly can be argued that people should be more welcoming of others. But if that’s your goal, scolding the resisters, accusing them of xenophobia and insisting on still more immigration is hardly likely to produce the results you’d like to see. Is it?
Webstir
Wow, there seems to be a-lot of Putnam blather. Where did he get his degree? Oh, right. Harvard. To which I reply: “Never Trust an Ivy Leaguer” Ever.
Instead, I would rely on (1) our founders good sense, (2) history telling us that every time there is a wave of immigration the “natives” go nuts until the wave assimilates to the culture, and (3) immigrants benefit society by promoting a more diverse marketplace of ideas.
“The ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas — that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.”
— Oliver Wendel Holmes
Again: Oh, right … conservatives only believe in a free market when it just so happens to line their pockets. Otherwise, extract rent.
Webstir
bigorangecat: called dude “meat.” Bull Durham fan? I loved that movie. And you got one helluva guffaw outta me 🙂
Peter
@RC
I think you’re confusing the removal of lead from gasoline with the still prevalent lead paint problem. The reduction of blood lead levels after the removal of TEL from gasoline coinciding with lower crime rates is documented but there is no causation connection that I could find, it remains an interesting unproven theory.
Frank’s study produced some solid facts but the conclusions and interpretations don’t hold up so well. Immigrants are people who prepare themselves for a new life in a new country and they usually bring some wealth and skills plus determination to do well in their new chosen home. If you drop a few thousand of these people in any neighborhood they would displace or reduce the rate of crime if not the actual number of crimes.
Trump’s ban is aimed at Syrian refugees a completely different class of people who may be wonderful people but their situation is much different. They were not prepared they were displaced and they may have little if any wealth to bring with them. Most importantly some of these people may not want to become something other than Syrians they only seek refuge.
The Syrian war seems to be ending at least the non-IS part of it so the displaced people can be housed and cared for in protected camps and then the process of returning them to their homes can begin where possible, they’re going to be needed to rebuild this devastated country.
EmilianoZ
First they came for the Moslems, and I didn’t speak out because I was not a Moslem…
Webstir
Peter: “Trump’s ban is aimed at Syrian refugees a completely different class of people who may be wonderful people but their situation is much different. They were not prepared they were displaced and they may have little if any wealth to bring with them.”
Oh, you mean like the Irish, Chinese, Russians, Italians, Hungarians and many others who have immigrated during times when their countries were burdened by strife and/or famine?
Puhleeeeez …
Here, check it out: http://metrocosm.com/us-immigration-history-map.html
V. Arnold
EmilianoZ
January 28, 2017
First they came for the Moslems, and I didn’t speak out because I was not a Moslem…
Spot on, thanks…
Peter
@EZ
I think you skipped over the ‘first they came for the Drama Queens’ dire warning.
Billikin
OIC. The benefits of immigration are short lived, while the costs accumulate and grow over time. That explains why the US, a nation built upon immigration, hit a brick wall around 1980.
realitychecker
@ Peter
Well, right now I can’t recall offhand if the studies that I referenced were just about lead paint, or just about leaded gasoline, or just about reduction of lead in the environment during that era; but. in any event, they were about reduction of lead, and made the argument that almost the whole reduction in crime could reasonably be attributed to that reduction by time correlation.
To me, the key conclusion in the article Mr. Stain was relying on was contained in the quote I excerpted, to wit:
” . . . no one knows precisely why the national crime rate has cratered in the past 30 years . . .”
IOW——Science! 🙂
Briefly, as to some other pro and con comments, the situation we face is not at all analogous to our own early immigration experience, and it is a waste of time and very misleading to pretend it is. I have of late been readings various writings from the post-1800 period. We we desperate for people then, to fill our empty spaces. We were giving away huge tracts of free land to incentivize that. None of the new arrivals came with the stigma of possibly being our deadly enemies. They all assimilated willingly and rapidly.
So please, let try not to make arguments that suit our hearts but aren’t really factually supported.
BTW, I was raised in New York City, surrounded by 100 cultures, and I was grateful for that experience, but the current situation needs to be analyzed on its own specific facts.
Webstir
@Peter & realitychecker:
The Roe v. Wade ruling provides another theory corresponding to roughly the same timeframe.
http://www.nber.org/papers/w8004
Billikin
A clash of cultures and mistrust of neighbors is not the same thing as diversity. The idea of America as a melting pot is a myth. When I was living in Hawai’i there were some 18 different racial and ethnic groups there, with the most recent arrivals at the bottom of the heap. I certainly met people who resented me for being a haole. But try telling Hawai’ians that they would have been better off without the descendants of Chinese coolies and Japanese laborers and they would just laugh. You lucky you live Hawai’i, bro!
Cultures are complex adaptive systems, just as biological systems are. They adapt. That is not to say that they improve. Not all adaptation is progress. But in general bringing people together, even racially, ethnically, or culturally diverse people, improves the number and quality of their human interactions and their lives. That is one thing that makes cities so vibrant. Yes, if people resist interacting with those from different groups, that clash can be a negative. But by comparison to what? One reason that Mississippi remains poor is the massive out-migration of Blacks during the Jim Crow era. Missouri and Illinois’s gain was Mississippi’s loss. Blue states subsidize the economies of Red states in no small part because of their greater population density. (Maybe their ideas are better, too, but that is certainly debatable.)
Some Guy
Good comment thread in that it exemplifies that this is the fault line that is destroying the left. Surprised MFI hasn’t been by to gloat yet.
Webstir
@Billikin: You entirely miss the point of what it means to be an American. The point is not that we all live in piece love and harmony. The point IS that there is constant. Again, I quote Justice Holmes in case you missed it above:
“The ultimate good desired is better reached by free trade in ideas — that the best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.”
We think competition is healthy. It brings out the best in us. Why do you think our legal system is called an “adversarial” system? The premise is that two parties in direct conflict against one another will work harder to find the truth of the matter. The TRUTH will come out of the conflict. The competition among ideas in a marketplace of free speech will bring the best ideas to the top. It’s not peaceful. It’s not neat. It’s not homogenous. It’s chaotic, stressful, rancorous, and yet, ultimately, possesses a beautiful genius.
Why is this bedrock principle of what it means to be an American so foreign to so many people today? When did conservatives turn into a bunch of milquetoasts?
Billikin
Oh, and Trump’s Mexican border wall is symbolic. There is no problem now with wetbacks coming across the border. If there is a problem, and I suspect there is, it has to do with competition for low paying jobs by people who are already here. Was there too much immigration from Mexico in the recent past? Maybe so. But that is not the problem now.
Looking forward, some people are afraid that in a few decades there will not be enough workers to support Social Security and keep our seniors out of poverty. If that is the case, shouldn’t we be encouraging immigration?
Billikin
@Webstir
“@Billikin: You entirely miss the point of what it means to be an American. The point is not that we all live in piece love and harmony. ”
That is not what I said. Read my note again.
sglover
@”Amerikaner” and others of his ilk: While you might be fine with keeping America white, doesn’t it bother you at least a smidgin that the way Trump is going about this stunt sets one helluva dodgy precedent? If Trump can revoke, **by decree**, the legal protections of permanent resident status, what’s to stop him from doing the same to citizenship? Why can’t he declare that people **born in the U.S.** have forfeited their rights for whatever whimsical reason he dreams up?
Aside from the self-defeating hysterical idiocy of this “policy”, the way Trump’s gone about it should also give you pause. They seem to have spent not a single millisecond thinking about knock-on effects. The economic and security costs are going to be immense. Even if one grants that Trump has to placate his xenophobe bloc, it’s a little hard to fathom why he had to do it in such an impulsive, stupid fashion.
Starveling
Siding with Trump on this one- we’ve enough people and enough problems. We need to build strong walls and bring industrial production home. If climate change is real? We will need quite strong walls indeed, as the whole of the third world will seek to flood the West for our temperate climes and our arable land.
We’ve taken in too many already this wave, let’s repeal Hart-Celler and get back to sense. I don’t like to see minarets going up in towns in my quiet rust belt state, thank you kindly.
Webstir
@Billikin: I stand corrected sir. I was too quick to the keyboard. My apologies.
But I’m still seeking insight into my final questions.
“Why is this bedrock principle of what it means to be an American so foreign to so many people today? When did conservatives turn into a bunch of milquetoasts that need to hide behind walls and ban the dreaded mysterious “other””?
Talk about safe spaces! The “snowflakes” Peter so often likes to deride, IMO are doing little more than wanting a place where people have manners. Conversely, what passes for a conservative these days wants the entire damn country for their own personal safe space — in direct conflict with everything that made this country great in the first place. The cognitive dissonance has me cross-eyed.
Webstir
@Starvling:
So, let me get this straight. Despite the history lesson contained in this thread, you want to toss the American experiment out the door because you dislike minarets?
Right. This country is fucked.
Starveling
No, I dislike loose labor, globalizing policy. I dislike ‘free’ trade and the idea that we should open up our doors to the flotsam of the entirety of the third world. There are six billion (with a b) third worlders, many of whom would love a shot at our resource base.
There are many angles from which such policy bothers me- for one, I quite like the culture and norms of the people around me- I’d rather they not be replaced by foreign ways. If you make a people a minority in their own land is it really their nation anymore?
For two, labor competition- I want protectionism and tight labor policy- less competition for myself and my cousins. Opening the floodgates brings me and mine into greater competition- and the lack of cultural cohesion makes any attempts at organizing all the harder.
For three, at what point does it end? Realistically our natural resource base can only hold so many- we’re likely already over the limit for what the future holds. When do we stop? 400m? 500? A billion? Two? Should we make ourselves as dense as India to uphold some absurd ideal of openness?
I say no, as do many around me. We deny our replacement.
Webstir
Starvling:
Well ok then. At least you’re taking some policy positions. It sounds like your basically making an overpopulation argument, which I totally agree with.
However, your argument doesn’t address the thread, which is about banning muslims. Particularly, muslims from countries that trump doesn’t do business with. Which, as I said up the thread, is essentially a milquetoast hide behind a wall “safe space” argument.
If, as a policy, we decide that we want less immigration in this country then we can certainly do so through constitutional means. Personally, I’m for replacement rate, and allowing occasional refugee influxes as necessary. If I could wave a magic wand I’d peg the population of the world at about 3 billion people simply because scientists have estimated that that is a fair carrying capacity. Also, I think our immigration policy should be a lottery, due to what I call the “grass is always greener” hypothesis. What we do is generally accept the best and brightest from the 3rd world. This policy in turn keeps the best and brightest from those countries from solving the problems that keep them mired in 3rd world status … thereby exacerbating the problem. Nobody wins when you can always just pick up and move “where the grass is greener.” It sets up a tragedy of the commons problem.
Now, what you’re advocating. That’s milquetoast hide behind a wall protectionism.
What you are is a “broflake.”
Hey RC … See what I did there? 😉
Starveling
Oh, I’d like a more comprehensive move than a temporary ban on a few nations of people who are likely to have a grudge against us for ruining them under uniparty invade the world policy. I just think this is an OK start.
It isn’t a real Muslim Ban though, it’s missing the Saudis and around 50 other Muslim majority nations besides.
Webstir
Ok Starvling, then make a coherent argument. Because (1) bringing back “manufacturing” by shutting out muslims is far from coherent, (2) blah blah blah “global warming” is less coherent, and (3) “If you make a people a minority in their own land is it really their nation anymore?” — is the most incoherent thing I’ve ever heard in my fucking life because we’re talking about the United Fucking States of America! This isn’t Saudi Arabia.
See, this is what I mean by cognitive dissonance. The patriotic flag wavers have no clue what it means to be an American anymore.
Billikin
@Webstir
Thank you for your gracious reply. I did not take offense, so no apology is necessary. 🙂
Your questions are above my pay grade, I am afraid.
As for what it means to be an American, I am afraid that the core American value of self-reliance has been eroded over recent decades. We seem to live in fear of strangers, both within and without our borders.
Mandos
The problem with the Putnam social cohesion study is that despite the fact that it’s relatively powerful, it’s hard to replicate. There’s a study by Sturgis et al. that finds the opposite relationship in London. It appears to correspond to a lot of other variables, and it probably varies over time. Which is to say:
1. As Ian says, if diversity results in social discohesion, there are probably also other problems with your society, such that if you fix them you will restore social cohesion even under diversity.
2. While sociological science provides useful data points, it still does not supplant moral philosophy and the discussion of values.
Folks like Amerikaner will not be satisfied if we prove that diversity can lead to an affluent utopia, because they’d rather be poor and backwards and among people they perceive as their tribe (regardless of whether the feeling is reciprocated) than rich and prosperous and surrounded by the Other.
That’s what Amerikaner is telling us when he says that he’d like to adopt some of the values of the people from whom he surmises I must come (about which he would probably be wrong, but anyway!), while imputing that I came (by being born) to the West in order to steal what “my” people could not produce. The values he wants to adopt are precisely the values that keep “my” people from producing a good life. So he prefers that kind of social dysfunction to prosperity under diversity.
Mandos
But the impression I’m getting is that the ban was basically written by people who *cough* are more used to writing hysterical, racist propaganda on web sites and not by people who actually know how bureaucracy works, but for that very reason cannot walk the more damaging aspects of this back. If the order had just halted the issuing of new visas, there would have been a gnashing of teeth. Stopping people from visiting their families and going back to their jobs — I’m guessing even for the Trump administration, it was (nevertheless highly malevolent) thoughtlessness rather than direct intent. Because the focus is now entirely on the often very economically productive Green Card holders and their families and not those smelly-dangerous refugeebeasts.
Tom
Stays have been issued by the courts, and Dulles defied the ban and opened its door.
Supreme Court hearing likely in two weeks.
Ché Pasa
And chaos ensues. Malevolent chaos. Deliberately induced.
Defiance. Chaos. Intervention. More defiance. More chaos. More intervention.
This is how we are to be ruled for as long as it takes to break what’s left of the spirit of resistance in this country, and there is very little we can do about it — except making it impossible for the rulers to govern. That point may come, but it’s not here yet.
There will be many more chaotic incidents in an attempt to overwhelm the defenses of the masses. Passivity in the face of chaos is a survival/safety mechanism, and most people will be passive no matter what comes. Human nature.
Note who is defiant. Note who inspires resistance — and who tries to quash it. Note who leads and who leads from behind. Note particularly the complicity and acquiescence of elected reps of both major parties.
Starveling
The point is there are many reasons to dislike any in migration period and banning in migration from peoples who are largely not going to assimilate to Western norms, as the banlieus of France prove, is madness.
We aren’t talking about high class Iranian doctors and businessmen fleeing revolution, we are talking about Somali ferals and illiterate Syrian peasants.
Was the Green Card issue bad optics? Sure. Would I shed a single tear at the total removal of every Somali and their children from the US? No.
Mandos
The French example is misused. France well had an opportunity for successful economic integration of these people, and chose not to take it. However, the good news is: many people of minority background in France are nevertheless successful and productive French citizens.
Somalis are not “ferals”, and the Syrian refugees are mostly not peasants.
And there we come to the rub. It doesn’t matter that these people have built lives. Some Trump supporters blame a bad division of wealth in the USA on people who are not responsible for it, and are manipulated by the ensuing fear into wishing to destroy their lives.
Starveling
When Hart-Celler was passed it was promised US demographics would not change. My people were 90% of the US population as of the 60′ Census. We are slated to be a minority within my lifetime.
I would welcome Caesar to reverse that decline. I refuse to be replaced.
Mandos
You are not being “replaced.” You are still here, and will be probably for the remainder of your natural lifespan. You are demanding violence be done to peaceful people’s lives for an obsession over an abstraction.
Mandos
No matter where you are in the world, no matter who is who around you, you will still be you. Replacement is impossible. The concept is an absurdity.
Tom
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2017/01/29/trump-s-border-patrol-defies-judge-u-s-senator-at-dulles-airport-at-his-first-constitutional-crisis-unfolds.html
Yep, Supreme Court Case soon. Unfortunately enforcement requires Trump to order an enforcement, the Courts don’t have enforcement powers.
Rd
“I note that if the intention was to punish sponsors of terrorism that the ban should have hit Saudi Arabia and Egypt, which is where the money and the actual 9/11 terrorists mostly came from.”
some of the other points raised are valid, however, I think in typical trump, he is just creating a diversion. a small segment of establishment wants to re-orient US FP and trump is ready to jump in bed with putin and later with china. this distraction will keep ‘little’ people and the media/political establishment busy beating each other in the head. while he does what they want. this is not to say what he does is justified or right.
Pelham
@Webstir
Be careful whom you quote. The esteemed Justice Holmes was also a big proponent of eugenics. To wit:
“It is better for all the world if, instead of waiting to execute degenerate offspring for crime to to let them starve for their imbecility, society can prevent those who are manifestly unfit from continuing their kind. … Three generations of imbeciles are enough.” — Chief Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes, “Buck v. Bell” 1927.
The founding fathers were hardly paragons either. Overall, the arguments you offer are based on sentiment, not observable fact. And even the sentiment is superficial, peering only so far as the plight of refugees and immigrants but refusing to look any further to assess the consequences that Americans are forced to live with.
So if Putnam’s work isn’t enough for you, I’ll briefly touch on the Case-Deaton study completed a couple of years ago that shows rising mortality rates in the US. Now the study has nothing to say about immigration. But what it does reveal in stark terms is the exceedingly rare phenomenon of an industrialized country actually reversing the normal pattern of gradually rising longevity. The only other case in living memory is that of Russia after the demise of the Soviet Union and the US-imposed shock doctrine of a rapid transition to a market-driven economy, yielding dire consequences for the Russian population. But even Russia today has managed to get back on the rising longevity track.
That’s not the case in the US, where Case-Deaton has laid bare the hellscape of our inner cities along with the vast, sprawling, de-industrialized interior of the nation where living conditions in many, many areas are literally worse than in Third World countries. And the pattern of refugee resettlement puts them squarely in such impoverished regions, thus imposing still further burdens on local institutions while adding to a labor force that, in our market-worshiping economy, serves only to drive down the already miserably low wage scale.
Pelham
@Mandos
Can you provide a link to the Sturgis study, or to a summary of it? Thanks.
Just a preliminary thought: As you note, Putnam’s work isn’t necessarily undermined, it’s just called into question. And if the Sturgis study, as you indicate, was confined to London, note that this is a fabulously wealthy city and thus the polar opposite of the settlement regions in the US where, immigrants and refugees are typically kept far, far away from the elites.
Joe
I believe I’m in the realm of Smart people over complicating things again. Seems to me this ban Its just a mini limp organ 911 stunt. Typical bully shoving the small kid behind the school dumpster. Trump is attempting to refocus the rabble, respray the roaches. Targeting his victims the primed zenophobe “base” on the war against other. He doesn’t really care who the other is. Muslims, Mexicans Greens, Blues whoever or whatever will do. Distracting attention from his plundering is the point. Your not dealing with a genius here so much as a casino owning con man high on his own self. By the way I believe one must always treat people well even if it means having to share. To be in the presence of other is almost always a privilege in my experience. You can take your creepy Putnam study and shove it.
Webstir
Oh Pelham, I’m sure you’re able to practice your sophistry quite successfully on other blogs. But the average IQ on here exceeds 70.
Basically, your last comment simply boils down to you cherry picking one study and building your worldview around it. You said nothing new because both your arguments are logical fallacies.
Strike one: pointing out that Holmes said something about eugenics does not remotely defeat his assertion about the market place of ideas. This is called the “anecdotal fallacy.”
Strike two: citing the Case-Deaton study and then trying to make it say something it doesn’t say is a classic straw man fallacy.
Strike three: you said, “Overall, the arguments you offer are based on sentiment, not observable fact.” What you call “sentiment,” the rest of the educated world calls “Qualitative Evidence.”
You’re out.
Tom
http://www.baghdadinvest.com/breaking-americans-banned-iraq-retaliation-measures/
Iraq didn’t waste any time.
realitychecker
@ Webstir
Re the abortion/low crime rate theory–ain’t social SCIENCE! great?
As long as time correlation seems to be the only criterion that really counts, I feel constrained by the pressure of tongue on cheek to point out that 1973 was basically the year I was first realizing how sexually appealing the opposite sex found me, and in the following 25 years it very well may have been the resulting heightened feelings of sexual satisfaction among women around the nation that accounted for better raising of children and therefore lower crime rates.
Science!
Peter
It’s sad to see nativism stick up its ugly head but I wonder if it does any more damage than the drama queen performances of the multiculturalists. Neither describe what is occurring now or will describe what will happen after the temporary restrictions are lifted. Refugees will continue to be allowed into the country which won’t change any demographics noticeably but there will be a more effective screening process for all foreigners coming into the country. There will also be reductions in the numbers of immigrants of all types because we have too many surplus workers already.
Trump is facing the likelihood of an attack from or related to the Islamic State and immigration or just visitors could be a way for these actors to penetrate the country. As Trump said in his early statements on this subject our border screening system was inadequate and slow and now he is keeping another campaign promise to repair it. I think the fact that Trump is keeping his promises to his supporters is what is actually driving the hysteria coming from the Clintonites. The misinformation and spittle flecked rhetoric coming from sites such as the Intercept is getting looser not better.
There must be a large surplus of underemployed lawyers in the US, I saw where one call for help in Chicago produced 300 volunteers just to assist a few Iraqi traitors stuck in the airport.
realitychecker
@ Webstir
I could quibble over many points you’ve made in this thread, but I see this entire conversation as one where lots of energy is going to be expended and very few minds changed.
So, I’ll just say that I applaud your devotion to the marketplace of ideas concept, as it is probably my single highest public policy value, and I am delighted that your lively mind is present to play in the realm of that concept, even while I am moved to point out that the correlation between marketplace of ideas ideology and diversity of ethnic components in the population is probably not a very tight one.
(Broflake? Yes, very creative, but I bet you fear to take the obvious next step–would start with h lol) 🙂
Finally, (I think you may appreciate this), Kelly Ann Conway with Chris Wallace this morning (slightly paraphrased per memory limitation):
Nobody has used or heard the word “penumbra” since 1973; Wallace instantly confirmed.
Mandos
And yet Peter completely leaves out the fact that it wasn’t just a refugee restriction, but the actual interruption of travel for US permanent residents!
GH
“I think the fact that Trump is keeping his promises to his supporters is what is actually driving the hysteria coming from the Clintonites.”-Peter
More than a few of them believed he would become a “moderate” Republican. That belief helps them cope because if he changes into something easier to deal with then they are able to remain as they are. I think what truly irks them is the thought of changing themselves to adapt to new circumstances.
Another part of their hysteria/resistance could be the need to maintain group cohesion/identity. The whole “Who are we? We are not them/him!” thing seem to go into overdrive when the group is under serious threat of being dissolved.
nihil obstet
This immigration ban is evil for its violations of human rights. As a matter of justice we should accept far more refugees from the wars we have so merrily started and waged. That’s the particular observation.
The more general one is that whether immigration is good or bad, or whether people are assets, depends on the circumstances. If increase in population exceeds the ability of the productivity of an area to support the increase, it’s bad. At some point, density becomes a problem. If, on the other hand, there’s room, resources, and opportunity for the growing population to contribute added value, then yes, people are an asset. I personally prefer less extensive use of land and resources. Although I’ve lived in cities much of my life, and prefer them to small towns or rural living which I’ve also done, I dislike mile after mile of subdivisions and monoculture development and the inevitable pollution that comes with lots of people — I think I’d like a rather pre-industrial pattern of development, with compact cities, distinct villages, and lots of open country. But currently the U.S. does not have so many people that such a living pattern would not be possible if politically we wanted it.
The problem for the U.S. has been that immigration has perpetuated unequal society. The legitimizing myth is that the poor immigrant comes to the land of opportunity, works hard so her children can have a better life, and they do. Furthermore, the children can now enjoy the cheap labor that the new immigrants provide. The hard, unpleasant, low-paid work is done by immigrants, and the legitimizing myth justifies it. This keeps us from having and enforcing adequate labor laws so that the hard, unpleasant work provides the means to a decent life.
As defenders of the undocumented point out, they do the jobs Americans don’t want to do. We need also to point out that it means that employers don’t have to make the jobs attractive to Americans.
The anti-immigration people are right that people with no choice other than to work cheap hurt many Americans by keeping wages low and work insecure. Note, as Dean Baker points out continually, that powerful professional groups do not allow the immigration of competitors like, say, Iranian doctors. Trying to defend moral policies regarding immigrants is likely to fail unless we also address the damage to native workers from what union people might call scab labor.
GH
“The problem for the U.S. has been that immigration has perpetuated unequal society.”
-nihil obstet
From what I can tell, the “unequal society” contains/conceals two problems that we have a difficult time solving:
1.) Integration – Not every newcomer wants to dissolve their unique identity and merge into the greater citizen body. (Some groups are quite stubborn/rigid and the funny thing is that on a long enough time-line the most stubborn/rigid are rewarded with power/influence for being so.) Most citizens insist that newcomers dissolve into the greater citizen body if for no other reason than they too had too lose their unique identity.
2.)Shifting Power/Prosperity – Disruption is a given in our society since we aren’t setup to climb the economic ladder hand in hand. (I dislike the Win/Lose dynamic as much as anyone else but its what we have at the moment.)
dude
@Joe
I think you are probably right as to the practical significance of this ban for Trump & Co. It’s about him and his money, it is not about any sort of over-arching principle of globalization, national security, American values or anything so high-blown. Ian has pointed out several times that the distinguishing mark of the Trump Administration is to make a show of “keeping” campaign promises. The Supreme Court and the street-resistance of people may yet bend those “promises” so they have no practical effect, but he will say he did what he could do and let it lie. I think his goals are more suited to his bank account.
And to the critics who assert Russia is not a “white” country: yes, I am aware there are many ethnic groups in Russia. Just as there are in the USA I might add–and these pages and many others reveal commenters who persistently claim that America absolutely depends on keeping America white because white values are the bedrock of “our” success, and that white people need defending because they are being outnumbered by immigrants who are too tribal to understand. So is America a “white” nation despite having a multi-ethnic culture for well over 150 years? No more or less so than Russia perhaps, but the faces of the Russian leadership have historically been “white” in modern times, so it is not hard to understand why the Asian press might make a note of how similar they are to the American faces of leadership–and that was the point of my wife’s observation. The Pacific world has its own problems with race and religion and monarchy and dictators, but they are also recent survivors of European (white) colonialism who had the wherewithal to resist and even thrive. I can hardly blame them for noticing how white the face of Trump and Putin.
Ryan
Blizzard: you have it backwards — the third world has always been the primary export of global empire
Willy
Hopefully, the deeper purpose isn’t to punish any entity not subservient to the oligarchy while rewarding the opposite. It may take a while for patterns to reveal themselves, but I’d assume this should happen.
Tomonthebeach
What annoys me is that complete lack of compassion for the fallout of Trumps dictates. Oh gee! I did not mean to ban persecuted Christians from these banned countries. Oh gee! People who worked for our military, spied and risked their lives for us are banned?
Trump has never seen his spouse detained and deported at the airport over a clerical mixup. You cannot communicate – it is forbidden – no cellphones. It is worse when it is an act that comes without warning. Blindsided relatives wait and wait and wait.
Meanwhile, if you are lucky enough to be from a country in which Trump does business — Come on down!
markfromireland
In all the pontification going on upthread not one of the commenters has noticed what should be screamingly apparent.
Every single one of the countries with the exception of Iran to which the ban is applied is a failed state and was treated as such by the previous administration. The reason why they’re failed states is irrelevant for current purposes. What does failed mean in this context? It means that the state in question no longer has the capacity to vet people and no longer controls ingress to or egress from its territory by hostile elements.
It really is that simple and that obvious.
Another simple and obvious fact that every single one of the commenters above has missed Trump administration is using the list of failed states compiled by its predecessor for the purposes of this ban. I suspect that Trump’s advisers felt that using their predecessors’ list would help them mute domestic opposition. Which leads me to Pakistan and Saudi not being included. Again this is simple and obvious. The Obama administration considered that both Pakistan and Saudi Arabia retain the capacity to vet travellers and keep track of undesirables and have at least some capacity to control their borders. That opinion may or may not be correct what is important for current purposes is that the Trump administration has taken the Obama administration’s stance and acted upon it.
Then there is the matter of diplomatic presentation – the Trump administration can claim that they are being practical rather than anti-Muslim.
What is far more important and what all the posturing buffoons seem to be missing is how deeply worrying it is that Iran is on the list.
different clue
Nirling Stewberry refers to those of us who voted for Trump as yahoos. I would note yet again that Nirling Stewberry never did explain why he said that the Cambodians had a choice over whether or not to get bombed during the Kissinger-Nixon period.
different clue
@RealityChecker,
We have just had a sort of “Mengele experiment” set into motion in Flint, Michigan. A whole age-set of kids there has been exposed to enough lead to re-arrange some of the protein molecules in their brain cells. We will get to see whether all the lead they were administered by two years of suppression/prevention of analyzing-solving the water problem in Flint will lead to more criminal acts by these experimental subjects when they reach age 18-20 years or so.
StewartM
MFI
Ouch. Good point. This is not showing up in the US reporting either.
Pelham
@Webstir
Oh Webstir, you silly goose. You’re the one who first quoted Oliver Wendell Holmes, not me.
And if you can’t grasp the simple point that Americans already besieged by economic pressures on every side might not welcome yet another burden in the form of immigrants and refugees and you’re also apparently incapable of offering anything other than weepy sentiment to support your own arguments … well, perhaps it’s time for you to just quietly slip out of the comment thread.
William Mcdonald
Ask Germany or Sweden how that unrestricted immigration worked out. Speaking as a deplorable, I back Trump 100%.
Peter
@MFI
I will agree that Iran is being re-centered in the reticle in general by the Trump regime but this temporary policy change is not a permanent ban on anyone but Syrian refugees. Trump has plans for the Persians which their religious/military leaders probably won’t like. Their connections to the turmoil in the region is highlighted by their inclusion in the temporary visa policy.
One possible scenario would see the Iranians eased out of Syria as part of a deal between Trump and Putin. The Russians along with the Turks could gain de-facto control of the country guaranteeing their interests all with approval from the White House which could never even be imagined under Obama or Clinton.
New possibilities for countering Iran’s influence in the ME are opening up with this new administration and they don’t seem to include Bomb Iran.
Webstir
@Pelham: you say that I’m a “silly goose” and am “incapable of offering anything other than weepy sentiment.”
However, you have still offered nothing of substance to refute my assertions and have fallen back on ad hominem attacks. Again, a logical fallacies.
Conversely, I used a logical argument to show the error in yours. You’ve yet to respond with anything remotely substantive. Are you beginning to understand how this process works?
Perhaps you should consider bumping back down to the minor leagues for a while and practicing your argumentative skills. Or, maybe just quietly slipping out of thread before I have the chance to embarrass you further.
kj1313
@Starveling
Pretty sure Native Americans were saying the same thing about their demographics until they were ethnically cleansed.
Also this is the United States which was built on immigration. If you have a problem with that or let’s give this land back to the Native Americans and African Americans as reparations.
Now regarding the Muslim ban the whole thing has me befuddled. While this plays to Trump’s base, the haphazard handling brings into questioning of Trump’s Administrations competence. His base said he would surround himself with a knowledgeable staff. If they start looking like a joke you could see a redux of what happened to Bush after Katrina.
As a child of an immigrant to the US and a Hindu whom growing up had no love for Muslims, this ban is just another avenue of continuing violence by the US towards the Middle East. Sorry if you were even remotely pro Iraqi War 2, the responsibility for these people falls on you and every jingoistic neocon who wanted a new adventure to seem strong after the Cold War. You don’t get to bomb their nations and say welp sorry can’t help you.
These are just random thought I had while reading your piece Ian.
Hugh
The Census estimates that the US population will be 399.8 million by 2050. The biggest driver in that growth is immigration and first-generation families. We are not taking care of our own as it is, a concern Trump capitalized on. So it is not clear how adding more to the mix will do anything other than worsen the problem. The frontier closed more than a hundred years ago. You can not have unrestricted growth in a finite space. I favor managing our population down to a sustainable level, something in the 200 million range. That means ending most immigration.
Immigrants both legal and illegal have been used to drive down wages and eliminate benefits of native-born workers. With H1-B visas, now it’s not just the lower end jobs that are being affected but upper tier ones too. There has always been a lot of political hypocrisy about this. Conservatives rail against illegals, for instance, but never do anything that might limit the flow of cheap labor to their political benefactors. Liberals, for their part, ignore the effects of this immigration on American workers. Trump is not immune to this either. Immigrants not only built many of his hotels and resorts, but staffed them too.
Cultural issues are a minefield, but let’s face it they do exist. It’s a lot easier to integrate say a single teacher from Ireland than a farmer with five sons from Syria who additionally may want to bring over brothers, sisters, and their families as well. As MarkfromIreland touched on above, refugees from failed states are particularly problematic. They come from places with no or weak civil institutions with no or a weak civil ethic. They may have little or no understanding that civic obligations run both ways.
As usual, Trump touched on a problem that had been swept under the rug for decades. And as usual, his solution, beyond the bluster, both makes no sense, pisses off lots of people, and won’t work. A wall won’t stop all the people who come to the country legally and then overstay their visas. It’s not even clear that it will have much effect on immigration across the Mexican border. All the while, the obvious is ignored. If you want to stop immigrants coming for jobs, penalize employers sufficiently that they won’t hire them. If you don’t want refugees coming from the Middle East, stop blowing up their countries. This won’t be a 100% solution, but I can live with a 90% one. Also I wanted to agree again with MFI with regard to Iran (this is another bone thrown to the AIPAC crowd) and to Saudi Arabia (plus the Gulf States) and Pakistan (the biggest funders and sponsors of terrorism on the planet).
Willy
Apparently America’s ability to vet immigrants is vastly inferior to that of the seven countries. If terrorists can slip past that safety net, what hope do we have?
Tom
The 8 year old daughter of Anwar al-Awlaki was shot to death yesterday in a SOCOM Raid in Yemen according to AQAP’s official twitter feed alongside several other civilians.
US is of course denying civilians died and claiming they killed 14 militants while AQAP states only one of their operatives was killed and they repelled the attack.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/facing-criticism-trump-administration-has-no-regrets-about-leaving-out-jews-in-holocaust-statement/2017/01/29/64852c70-e641-11e6-b82f-687d6e6a3e7c_story.html?tid=sm_tw&utm_term=.d90366290914
Trump actually has a point here, more than Jews were targeted, and Hitler’s plans included the wholesale extermination of European Russians and Poles as well. Still its a sign of further turmoil to come.
https://theintercept.com/2017/01/10/the-crimes-of-seal-team-6/
Yep, this is going to be a fun four years in which their will be no further doubt who is actually good or bad. Too bad the Democrats imploded and Bernie played martyr instead of fighting.
Billikin
The courts may not have enforcement power, but, unlike in Andrew Jackson’s time, it is now illegal to carry out illegal orders, thanks to Nuremberg. If Trump issues illegal orders in defiance of the courts, they may not be carried out.
realitychecker
@ different clue
I don’t think there has ever been any question in modern times that lead ingestion has major negative physical and behavioral effects over time.
Except, of course, from the producers of the lead that got ingested, but we understand how that works, don’t we?
Peter
It looks as if the Clintonites with their scurrying snowflakes will capture a few news cycles with this nonsense. Their immediate problem is that there are no victims in the airports, they were released and there were few of them anyway. I don’t think anyone even got deported which makes the court ruling moot.
The activists are fundraising and the demonstrators may continue being the ones creating chaos and confusion with the few new people caught up in this policy handled on an individual basis. I’m particularly interested in how the ACLU and others plan on projecting constitutional protections onto resident aliens/foreigners who are outside the country.
bruce wilder
Good job, Mr Sinister
comment Left “ironically” !?!???
In self doubt?!!?
Starveling
@kj1313 I think if the natives had a time machine and the Powhattan could see into the future they would have destroyed the first English settlements with a vengeance. Bringing up the Indians with regards to my people’s conquest of the lands of the various tribes isn’t going to work- the triumphs and sins of my ancestors cannot be used against me in my desire for sane, limiting migration policy.
Is this particular order a bit fruitless? Perhaps, but I admire the direction things are going. We might just save ourselves after all.
Tom
@Bilikin, Bush and Obama have already ignored the courts on torture of detainees and granting trials to those detained at Gauntanomo. Trump is no diferent.
Lisa
What a CF….. and see what happens when you get ideologues in Govt, who have little (any?) touch with reality.
Seems a small number within the US Govt convinced him that it wouldn’t be a problem…then we have permanent residents returning and being knocked back, people with valid visas being caught out in mid air ..heck even pilots being stuffed with airlines running around like headless chooks trying to deal with it.
Now we can debate the actual policy and how ‘right’ or wrong it might be (double serving of hypocrisy though however you look at it)…but then there is implementation. That has to be worked out carefully, even if just for political reasons let alone basic humanity and observance of the law…and it is a total CF…..
Oh my if they can stuff something as simple as this, this gives little hope for any other things.
The positive thing is that it is so screwed up, so cruel, so in people’s faces that it has eneregised so many people to fight against it….
We might end up longing for the ‘good old days’ of the neo-conservatives in Bush’s Govt who just redefined reality ..rather than ignore it entirely…
This sums it up perfectly:
“Malevolence Tempered by Incompetence: Trump’s Horrifying Executive Order on Refugees and Visas”
https://lawfareblog.com/malevolence-tempered-incompetence-trumps-horrifying-executive-order-refugees-and-visas
Though I’d put it: “Malevolence -Untempered by Competence: Trump’s Horrifying Executive Order on Refugees and Visas”.
Lisa
Oh my the comments are so ..silly, 0verall with honourable exceptions..the closeted (and programmed by others) …silly boys “I am smart and believe everything I am programmed to hate and if you don’t hate how I am told to hate you are a ‘butthurt snowflake” …no you sir are an idiot.
Islamophobia ( just an indirect racsism thing they are not white aren’t they) , the direct racism (long felt but not allowed in polite company) ..of course the homophobia… sigh…
Being cowards of course (remember my bully/violence thing), homosocial to a fault (conditioned to be sociopaths) .. of course with all the sexual neuroticsm that entails (any woman who has or wants sex with me is a slut)….
The classic homosocial ideal is a bunch of racist, raping bullies ..who run to their mothers when someone faces (or better still beats) them down… They always cry for their ,who usually hated them, mothers. Oh I remember them well… so strong at 10 or even 20 to 1 (the one was me) and so cowardly alone…and so so cried when they got hurt….
Remember my rules : the US is a high violence /high bullying culture ..but what happens when the traditional victims fight back…… Well the perpiarators get all ‘butthust’… (it is a sexual fantasy of theirs by the way) …..
Ché Pasa
“A shock to the system” as KAC put it. And “Just the beginning.” Yep.
See, we already had our Reichstag Fire Moment quite some time ago. Some of us are old enough to remember it, remember where we were and what we were doing and all that sort of thing. The response transformed the government and the attitudes of Our Rulers toward the Rabble and the owners and sponsors of that government to the extent that the US today is not a recognizable entity compared to what it was Pre-Reichstag.
Shocks to the system help keep the Rabble off guard and off balance and ultimately keep them tame. They also help keep the factions inside and outside the gates of the palace fighting with one another over issues of power and wealth. No “solution” ever arises except to the benefit of one or another of the factions — sometimes solely to the benefit of specific individuals.
None of the “solutions” benefit the People. They are instead further oppressions and extractions.
The shock of the diktat was not so much its contents — try to read it, it’s mostly gobbledygook — as it was the immediate, cruel and largely arbitrary implementation. It was deliberate, planned, and very cynical chaos. That little worm Reince Preibus (I think it was) said they’d been working on the plan and implementation for weeks. If he’s telling the truth (who knows with these people) then what we saw was for the most part what they intended to happen.
And of course the apparent pull back from the most egregious cruelties — such as splitting families, sending green card holders back (if that’s what happened) and outright illegalities regarding immigrants — makes the Supreme Ruler seem like a Benevolent King correcting the excesses of his security state apparat (“if only the Czar knew!”) rather than the POS he is.
Ignoring court orders was apparently built in to the plan as well. After all, as Andrew Jackson showed clearly all those many years ago, there is essentially nothing the courts can do if the Rulers and their government chooses to ignore or defy them. For the most part, the courts are so deeply compromised as it is that they’re rarely going to rule against the government in any case. And when they do, the upshot will often be to enhance the power of the government over the people rather than restrict it.
Also it’s an opportunity to gauge the “resistance.” I’m not sure they expected such a large, mostly spontaneous outpouring. But they saw it, and they saw how ultimately easy it was to corral and dissipate it with a bit of police violence here and there, some tweaks to the implementation, and sending in some clowns to entertain the crowds with hot headed demands and tales of daring-do.
Hilarity no doubt ensued in the White House and corridors of DHS. “This is a cinch!”
Dog knows how many pixels were sacrificed in online intellectual discussions of Immigration Policy. But that wasn’t the point of the exercise. The point was a naked display of essentially arbitrary power, and for the most part it worked beautifully.
There will be many more such exercises to come.
V. Arnold
Ché Pasa
January 30, 2017
The response transformed the government and the attitudes of Our Rulers toward the Rabble and the owners and sponsors of that government to the extent that the US today is not a recognizable entity compared to what it was Pre-Reichstag.
I’m not sure that’s accurate to the real history of the U.S..
Lisa, commenting above says: “Remember my rules : the US is a high violence /high bullying culture…”
I think that’s correct, but going back to our roots in Europe; not just since 1776; or February 27, 1933 in Germany.
I think our embodiment of violence has become genetic; the dominant gene for a number/many of centuries.
It may be a class thing, but I’d argue otherwise. It’s all too common in our everyday culture; especially nurtured by poverty , jobless-ness, and discrimination.
The U.S. has become so mythologised by forced education (over 100 years), propaganda, and state sponsored media in a veritable blitzkrieg, it becomes an immense, nigh on impossible to ignore distraction.
Facts get conveniently buried requiring some actual intent and effort to uncover.
It’s easier now because of the internet; but that in itself becomes a sand trap in the way of discovery.
The single most valuable skill, is the nurturing of critical thinking; and a social that encourages challenges, intellectually honest challenges…
Ché Pasa
@ V. Arnold
The violence is part of the Original Sin of the colonial and then the US enterprise. No way to get rid of it short of annihilation, and even then…
The transformation that took place after the Reichstag incident looked a little different from the inside. Electeds were more terrified than anyone else was, and they responded with a lockdown security state. To protect themselves, not us, and mostly to protect themselves from us. I watched it happen, and it was crazy. Why, I wondered, were all these ”security” efforts focused on protecting the Government from the People when supposedly the attack was from the “terrorists?”
How well I remember Cheney blasting his bunker-hidey-hole under the Naval Observatory mansion. To protect his cowardly self from whatever might come including pitchforks and torches.
It wasn’t just at the federal level, it was everywhere. The fear of the rabble was palpable. Layers and layers of security made it nearly impossible for the unwashed to approach the high and the mighty. That was more important than anything else. Never again would they let themselves be as vulnerable.
Same with their corporate overlords.
Once security was considered sufficient, a strange sense of serenity set in. Our Rulers were convinced nothing could touch them. I’m sure they still live in that fantasy, but the advent of Trump has shattered some of their complacency.
I’ve long maintained that the only way to stop this madness is to make it impossible for them to govern. That’s not so hard to do, but it’s risky. On the other hand, the chaos itself may put a stop to the worst of it.
We’ll see…
V. Arnold
Ché Pasa
January 30, 2017
Indeed; we’ll see…
Ed
Ian–what’s your take on this:
https://medium.com/@yonatanzunger/trial-balloon-for-a-coup-e024990891d5#.r6mchpkh8
the author argues we’re watching a coup in action right now.
Billikin
Tom:
“@Bilikin, Bush and Obama have already ignored the courts on torture of detainees and granting trials to those detained at Gauntanomo. Trump is no diferent.”
That does not contradict what I said. Besides, even before Nuremberg, Americans were less likely to “just follow orders” than other peoples.
As for Trump not being different from Bush and Obama, he has a history of skirting the law, and, as we are now seeing, he goes off half-cocked with little regard for legal boundaries. The current situation will be an interesting test case for Trump vs. the Judiciary.
Peter
I see there is plenty of drama queens here to make up a chorus line of resistance and pearl clutching now that Trump is exercising his executive power. The new affinity group is the oppressed green card holder from certain ME states who sent one hundred of their representatives to be mauled by Trump’s border lions.
The problem was the GC holders were only inconvenienced and questioned before release and the only chaos and confusion was caused by the snowflake brigades rampaging through the airports. This actually helped with Trump’s policy change advertising worldwide that the gates are closed to certain people for a proscribed length of time.
All that the whining classes can do is send in the lawyers now and waste more time bickering while Trump checks off another campaign promise fulfilled and moves on with his agenda.
These chorus lines of pearl clutchers will be busy for a while and they have a new anthem to hum, I think it’s called The Tears of Schumer.
realitychecker
@ Peter
Nobody’s ever seen Schumer cry before, so there’s that.
Lefty judge appointed by Obama in early 2015. Always pays to check the basics.
My prediction: Best move is to buy copies of the order and use them for toilet paper.