Trump’s Not-So-Crazed Speech in Ohio

Good speech, he knew what his supporters wanted to hear in a victory speech and gave it to them. Interesting how he did a mix of his stump speech and policy statements.

There’s no way to understand Trump and his success without understanding that he is running a con. Con artists generally aren’t stupid or crazy. They’re just particularly skilled sociopaths.

It’s not so much that he lies — he even tells his marks not to believe him, yet they do anyway. Still his defenders point to what he says as if it were meaningful — he said something in a speech, and gee, it isn’t crazy! See!

So?

It’s not meaningful, nor is it meant to be believed. It’s part of the con. Show business, if you will. He even tells them not to believe what he says. But they do anyway.

Con artists don’t need a defense in this situation. Trump doesn’t need a defense beyond that provided by his bodyguards and flacks.

His victims do. His victims include those he has scapegoated to distract attention from the con he’s running. They are the ones at primary and immediate risk of harm. Hundreds have already been assaulted or otherwise harmed, and there is no sign of that risk abating any time soon. If he’s allowed to proceed, those at risk of direct harm — whether scapegoats or not — will include most Americans and many around the world.

This is a man who praises Philippine death squads, after all. Why not? Duerte is wildly popular. And if love and admiration is Trump’s goal, what’s to prevent him from emulating the Philippine president? We already have uniformed killers roaming the country and killing at random. There’s little or nothing to prevent organizing and systematizing what already exists into fully functional death squads — and so long as their targets are (mostly) among the scapegoated, who will complain?

His victims also include his marks, those he has conned and who he is now in the process of betraying. Hour by hour, day by day his betrayals mount, and as they mount, the situation becomes more and more unstable and chaotic. He sowed the wind, but he’s not the only one reaping the whirlwind. Eventually, it sweeps us all in.

Nihilists cheer.

So at least there’s that.

Two points:

1) Ian I wish to send a big attaboy for your observation that Trump wants to be loved and adulated. The man is an open book to those who can read other people. Sadly most cannot. He has other less savory motives but this one is big. Yuge you might say.

2) Wouldn’t it be nice if he combined a vast simplification of the corporate tax code with muscular enforcement of the anti-trust apparatus? Now THAT would be something that could start bringing new competition to these bloated, parasitic multinationals. Probably never happen but a populist can dream.

Will

@mfi wrote: I suspect you’re wasting your time, way too many people have way too much invested in believing or pretending to believe that he’s either stupid or crazed or both. What would be a good neologism for “stupid or crazed or both”? How does “crupid” grab you?

How about “scared”? As in too scared to think or believe that anything positive will come out of this, except what might be salvaged after the wrecking ball is finished, smashing a once great edifice totally to smithereens. And that’s after Trump’s billionaire cronies get finished hauling the best of it away.

Ian’s writing gives me a little hope, but that’s about all. I am working overtime to get out of the USA.

@ V. Arnold

I’m sure there’s more than one brain fart in that early morning screed. The thing is that Trump is at root a con man. He tells anyone who will listen that they shouldn’t believe what he says. Yet his defenders insist on cherry picking his statements and assert they’re meaningful somehow — while ignoring everything else he says.

That’s how a con works on the vulnerable marks. Somewhere in there is something they want to hear. But it’s meaningless. And when the marks find out they’ve been scammed, at first they deny that it’s happened, almost universally. They can’t accept that they fell for a con. But they did. And when they can’t deny it anymore, they want to find someone to blame. For the Trump team, the objective is to keep the blame away from the center; thus the increasing danger to scapegoats, the scapegoats that Trump has designated: immigrants, brown people in general, Mexicans, Muslims,
“thugs” — you get the picture. That’s why I brought in Duerte’s death squads. That’s what happens when scapegoats are targeted to distract from a con. We can find a lot of other similar examples throughout history. That is a clear and present danger.

What I didn’t say is that some of Trump’s loyalists and defenders are in on the con and expect to profit from it.

Ultimately, this is a chaotic and unsustainable political situation, and it is dangerous for a whole lot of reasons, some obvious and some not. I don’t know how it will shake out.

@ mfi

I’ve got plenty of evidence. But you’re an aware adult. I’ll let you find it on your own. Just because you don’t accept the evidence doesn’t invalidate it, strange as it seems.

As for the intrinsic danger to scapegoats, the Irish should know better than almost anyone how that works. I cannot imagine you don’t. But I can imagine you’re happy enough to have scapegoats targeted — as long as they don’t include you.

My Irish Catholic ancestors were driven out of Ohio, one was killed by an anti-Irish, anti-Catholic Know Nothing mob, and I don’t have any interest in your doubts that anything like it could happen again. I won’t argue the point with you. History is proof enough.

Police killings in the US are documented fairly extensively. You can find out about it easily enough. Read up a bit. Inform yourself. And ask some questions about the death-dealing of US police. Transforming what is now essentially random police killing into an organized and systematized death squad operation wouldn’t be difficult at all. Again, you’re Irish aren’t you? You should know very well how this works. It was practiced by the British and Ulster allies in Ireland, and it was responded to in kind by Irish patriots for generations.

That isn’t something I want to see happen in this country, though I have no reason at the moment to believe it can be or will be prevented.

If he really did put a stop the warring and if he gave us a single payer healthcare system – to include expanding our schools so anyone qualified to be trained as a doctor or nurse could be educated in those fields – it would be worth it to me.

One other indication of sanity: He doesn’t ask God to bless America, or the crowd, or his agenda, or anything else.

Ché Pasa December 4, 2016

Yes we’ll not once in all the time you’ve been here attitudinising have you ever bothered to support your statements either with reasoned argument or with evidence other than your unsupported word. Never. Not even once.

You’re clever enough in slithery sort of way to be able to be able to argue logically but you’re so brimming over with the arrogance and contempt towards your fellow humans that you substitute bombast for dialogue and faked outrage for evidence. No wonder every election goes against you, no wonder you lose every single one of your political struggles, you don’t do persuasion (or even propaganda!)

That tells me and everyone who reads here all they need to know about you. You don’t have any beliefs or principles, none. Just attitudes and histrionics.

Has it ever occurred to you that in what was it you said you were? 59? Approaching 60 anyway. Has it ever occurred to you that nearly sixty years of being on the losing side again and again and again is something of a hint. Your entire political life has been one entirely preventable failure after entirely preventable failure followed in dreary and depressing sequence by yet further entirely preventable failures you know to everyone except the utterly self-absorbed and self-indulgent that would be fairly strong that you’re either doing something wrong or that you’re wrong or both.

Both.

EOD

He doesn’t just want to cut taxes on corporations who, as you note, already dodge and underpay their taxes but on the rich as well. However, by and large, the rich and corporations won’t use this money to make productive concrete investments but will gamble with it in financial markets. And even if they did use it for productive investments, this approach would increase rather than decrease wealth inequality.

“Reduce regulations” has been code for decades for allowing corporations to pollute more, produce more dangerous and shoddy products, and screw over workers. And again there is no indication that reducing regulations will even keep companies in the US.

Renegotiating NAFTA is all fine and good, but what does this have to do with China, the 800 pound gorilla in the room?

Repealing Obamacare and moving to private savings accounts for healthcare simply replaces one con with another.

I agree with reducing and mostly eliminating immigration because it does depress US wages but more importantly as one part of a plan to address overpopulation in the US.

Trump’s infrastructure plans are a bunch of public-private partnership scams. And he can only go “buy American” if he exits the WTO and all existing free trade agreements which I do not think he can do without Congressional consent and legislation.

Again as you note, his government of billionaires is a recipe and license for corruption. They are not nasty winners. They are nasty crooks.

There are already lots of ways to get around lobbying restrictions. People can become “consultants”. They can join think tanks. They can still go through the revolving door and go to work directly for a corporation or sit on its board.

Affordable child care paid for by whom and how?

Increased pay for women? How about equal pay and opportunities for women? How many decades have politicians been promising this? It’s a nice throwaway line but glaring pay inequality and lack of opportunities still remain.

Fighting ISIS or whatever the next iteration of the war on terror gets cast as is a gateway for maintaining current and starting lots of future wars.

But other than that no more wars? See above. Also while Trump slams NATO, he is as goofy pro-Israel as Clinton was. This is very much not mind our own business.

More money for cops? Again where is this money coming from? And how does funding an expanding, militarized, shoot first and dodge responsibility later police force make any of us, but especially minorities, safer?

The Great Wall was always a con. If you want to stop illegal immigration, you levy punitive fines and jail time for those who employ them. It is, of course, both ironic and hypocritic that Trump was heavily involved in construction, hotels and restaurants, three industries filled with illegals.

Win-win deals and also ponies. There should always be ponies.

And finally repealing regs on hydrocarbons because global warming is a hoax. I see this as mostly indicative. If Trump can be so reality challenged on this, the sky is the limit on what else he can get expensively and catastrophically wrong.

mfi: ” Those who refuse to present an easy target as a pretty much invariable rule don’t get targeted. ”

Consult any random African American about that.

Bozo.

To those going after Mark;

You sound like a bunch of prim & proper upper class grade school girls.

You know; it’s all rather moot at this point. You (I didn’t vote) elected one of the two leading monsters into the office of president.
The best you can hope for is a benevolent monster; Hillary most assuredly, is not, a benevolent monster.
It would seem the U.S. is on a set course; not dependent on who holds office. If that is in fact the fact; you’re fucked either way.
You created it; you fucking live with it…or, do something genuinely radical!
I didn’t think so…

In today’s episode of “Draining The Swamp”, it’s official that crazy Ben Carson is nominated for HUD Secretary. Meanwhile, Trump spent the weekend creating diplomatic incidents with China and whinging about his portrayal on “Saturday Night Live”. Oh btw, I think we now know why Ivanka was in that meeting with the Japanese PM. Her clothing company is, and has been, working on a licensing agreement with Sanei International, whose largest shareholder is wholly owned by the Japanese government. Funny that.

But hey, Trump’s victory rally speech was “not-so-crazed” so carry on with your musings….

It’s very easy to loose one’s cool when arguing with people who repeatedly and steadfastly refuse to back their assertions up with evidence. I’ve had to restrain the impulse to bash in the computer screen once or twice responding to comments here…

Mark, don’t let them get to you. They’re not worth getting angry at. Contempt will more than suffice.

No, it’s Trump taking lessons from Obama—Say what they want to hear while campaigning, get elected, then do whatever you want.

But maybe this has been going on for a while now?

I suddenly notice that not a single, courageous veteran going to North Dakota ever said their reason for going was because the U.S. prior, and current, wars are bullshit. That the wars they served in were BULLSHIT.

They said nice things but they never said that. We’ll see, I guess.

“Trump, very clearly, wants to be loved and adulated. That is his primary goal here”

I would say it is more his primary motivation for everything he does. And that is what will be his failure as a President. But as a strong man despot it works to his advantage

Reading all this tooing and frowing has been interesting, to say the least.

Let’s go back to something I said here ages ago, when Trump was heading for a win in the GOP candidate procedure: “the problem with Trump is that he hasn’t got the organisation and people to make meaningful change even if he got into power, unlike Sanders”.

He was rejected by the GOP ‘establishment’ and drew mostly from the religious right and the nutjobs (sometimes called the ‘alt right’). With him in power that is the group he has largely filled his major positions with. These are the people that count that make all the many day to day decisions that actually make things happen.

So pretty speeches aside, and history is replete with leaders who made pretty speeches and did the exact opposite, what will his Govt actually do? Note that there is little ‘balance’ in his senior team, that is (what many smart leaders do) have people with opposing positions and outlooks.

Mike Pence, VP. Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI (you can add misogynist, anti contraception and abortion as all the Religious Right are).
Jeff Sessions, Attorney General, Cabinet. Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI. “Here is a man who scored a string of zeroes on the Human Rights Campaign’s Congressional Scorecard. “

Betsy DeVos, Secretary of Education, Cabinet. Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI. “DeVos has donated millions to Focus on the Family, which calls antibullying programs some kind of gay propaganda meant to promote homosexuality. Focus on the Family is famous for its conversion therapy programs.”. ” Her plan, she said, is to use power to “advance God’s kingdom.””

Tom Price, Secretary of Health and Human Services, Cabinet. Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI. Wants to privitise Medicare.
James “Mad Dog” Mattis, Secretary of Defense, Cabinet. Virulently anti-LGBTI.
Elaine Chao, Transportation Secretary, Cabinet. Virulently anti-LGBTI. Married to also virulently anti-LGBTI Republican Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell of Kentucky
Wilbur Ross, Commerce Secretary, Cabinet. Virulently anti-LGBTI. Billionaire financial predator.
Steven Mnuchin, Treasury Secretary, Goldman Sachs (the ‘vampire squid’) and a Soros man. “He said cutting corporation tax to 15pc, from 30pc was a major goal for the Trump administration, as he called for the tax system to be simplified.”
Reince Priebus, Chief of Staff, Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI.
“.. head of the Republican Party can wield influence over the drafting of its platform. And this year’s Republican platform is “most anti-LGBT … in the Party’s 162-year history,” according to the Log Cabin Republicans.”

Mike Pompeo, CIA Director, Religious Right, virulently anti-LGBTI.
Michael Flynn, National Security Adviser, Probable ‘Alt-Right’. Probably anti-LGBTI.
Nikki Haley, U.N. Ambassador, unknown and irrelevant.

Steve Bannon…public head of the ‘Alt Right’, well what needs to be said about him, virulently anti-LGBTI, racist, misogynist…..

What a crowd …and what is the common theme here? Most, such as Pence, are racist and misogynist through and through, though often a bit more circumspect about that than their LGBTI hatred.

But we now see the Faustian bargain the GOP made with the ‘religious right’, starting with Nixon no less followed by Reagan, coming to its full ugly fruition. In many ways this is a ‘Ted Cruz’ President… An FDR Govt this is not.

It is going to be horrible for women and LGBTI people.

So the US is going to get a ‘christian’; theocracy jammed down it throat, and any improvements will be accidental (and note Religious Right people are all neo-liberal economically, neo-conservative on foreign affairs and totally pro Israel).

War with Iran soon? Or maybe China?

There’s a reason for the term ‘hysterical female’. I can only assume that the name Lisa is real. Maybe not though.

What? Like I’m supposed to believe everything I see on the internet? I think everyone knows that’s not the case.

Who am I? Where am I?

P.S. Cory Morningstar is full of shit. Just look, see.

Re Trump’s appointments, they all need to be confirmed. That means Senate hearings. It also means that, unless McConnell goes nuclear, the filibuster rule applies, which means cloture votes requiring a minimum 60 votes to proceed to a final confirmation vote are needed. So both Democrats, and certainly Democrats along with various anti-Trump Republican factions, can stop the crazier of Trump’s nominees, and do so fairly easily –if they wanted to. Big “if” there.

Trumps appointments. Yes. We know.

No, but seriously, for shear Trump-humping fun this blog is as embarrassing/shameful as Breitbart.

Bye, sharky!!!

The mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Ian, as long as this barking asshole tsisageya is allowed to post, you can color me gone.
He’s obviously psychotic.

Mallam, I know Reid exempted federal judgeships from the filibuster. I do not know if he applied that to all federal appointees. I would be interested in a citation to that effect.

Also no Senate is bound by the rules or decisions of any previous Senate. They start fresh with each session. So Reid’s decision would not last beyond the session in which he made his decision unless it was continued by McConnell when he became majority leader.

Nah, he’s just an unshaven and toothless old drunken bum pounding away after a liquid lunch. Once the library closes, he’ll be gone.

Oops. Barking asshole, V Arnold? Okay. I’ll stop. No worries at all. Feel free to spout away.

@IBW

Bless your heart.

I can’t speak for anybody else, but I don’t doubt we all have other outlets for our sparkling wit and deep insights. This is one of several.

There’s a long history between MFI, Ian, several of the other posters and commenters here, and me. Some of it goes back to Jane’s Place. Hugh and I go back to the Dean campaign in California, when we and others would sit around strategizing how to get a Rockefeller Republican (as I saw him) elected Democratic president. After his defeat in the primaries and Kerry’s unsurprising loss to Baby Bush (“we told you so!”) I worked on getting Dean elected DNC chair (we won that one) and then I withdrew from Dem Party politics and became quite a vocal if somewhat of a gadfly critic of the Party, for good reason. They have betrayed their constituents as fully and frequently as any political party in this country ever has. They do it openly and proudly. It’s infuriating and disgusting.

Ian has some sharp insights, and I disagree with him about Trump. I disagree with a lot of people on the internet about Trump. He is not worthy of the kinds of defense he’s been receiving. He shouldn’t be anywhere near the White House. He is a catastrophe. I felt the same way about Bush, Jr. and I was right. I would say much the same about Mrs. Clinton were she on her way back to the White House. But she’s not, so I don’t care about the disaster she would have been in office because she’s not going to be in office. Trump and his cronies will be, and I really care about that and I care about those who will be harmed because of it. Just as I cared about those who were harmed by Bush Jr and his cronies and by Obama and his gang of imperialist warmongers.

The airy dismissal of the suffering of others — “Oh it won’t be so bad! Sure some will suffer, but realistically they would suffer anyway. You’ll see! He’s got some good ideas! And he won’t start WWIII like Hillary would!” — truly sicken me. I’m old and infirm and can’t physically do what I once could in opposition to this madness, but I still have a voice, and I will continue to use it until I can’t anymore.

@ V. Arnold

Agreed.

We do what we can. Not all of us can be on the front lines, and not all of us are going to agree about this or that course of action, or even if any action is necessary.

I have deep admiration for the Water Protectors in North Dakota because they were successful in bringing the Juggernaut to a standstill. While it is paused, the activists are facing dissension and efforts are under way to shatter their solidarity.

Not surprisingly, that effort is being led by the Standing Rock Sioux Tribal Chairman Dave Archambault, who was the voice of calm, determination and reason throughout the struggle. His leadership, while not the only factor, was essential in the temporary success the Water Protectors have achieved. And now he tells everyone to go home for their own “safety” and that nothing will happen with the pipeline for months. If they’re needed in the future, he’ll call the Water Protectors back, but for now there’s no need for them to be there. “Go home.” Of course he was speaking in the midst of a white out blizzard. Nobody is going home under those conditions.

Resistance in the camp is strong. He’s losing authority by the minute. But it has split the camp, too. In my view that’s intentional. A success of this kind cannot be allowed to solidify and persist. It is against every principle of neo-libcon governance.

One step forward, two steps back?

We’ll see….

@IBW

Don’t you dare to lead these snowflakes, closet Clintonites and doom preachers away from here. They may be annoying and dreadful but they are the best indicator of how the Clintonite cult is continuing to disintegrate and is stuck in a lost reality. These magpies, along with many others, are making the possibility of a 50 year conservative rule a reality.

Obama displayed what liberalism truly is when he was confronted about the Carrier workers and responded that he couldn’t do anything and said they should look forward. In other words he didn’t care and is looking forward to his prosperous future.

Trump didn’t depend on focus groups or quislings to guide him to a safe path he used his power as the representative of the people to make a deal, not a perfect deal, that means that 1000 families in Indianapolis will have a Merry Christmas. This could have easily backfired on Trump but he didn’t flinch from his duty to do something that has never even been tried before, confront powerful corporations directly about what they are doing to the country.

@ Lisa

“Religious right are: misogynist, often racist, all anti-LGBTI, anti-science, anti other religions (especially Muslims), very pro Israel . . .”

Apparently, you forgot that Israel’s enemies who have vowed to destroy it are also “virulently anti-LGBTQ.”

Pretzel logic, Lisa?

You know what’s “in common” in all of your comments, Lisa?

@HVD

I doubt the 1000 families in Indiana would agree with your definition of meaningful whatever that may be. The fact that you only see Trump’s actions as clever shows why he won this election and he will use the fact that he is underestimated by the ‘smart people’ to move forward with his agendas.

The so called left and unions have been whining and handwringing about the TPP for five years with no effect on its progress, led by Obama, yet when Trump was elected but not yet in office it dropped dead at the ruling classes’ feet. Does this bit of international magic qualify as meaningful?

Trump’s saving those jobs in Indiana may seem a small thing to some people but it is a sign of what is possible if someone with power actually wants jobs to stay here where they’re needed. Wall Street is driving this offshoring demanding larger profits and that is where the larger battle will be fought after Trump becomes president.

I’m not counting on anything Trump does but he has already made a significant impact before taking the oath of office. If he brings the republicans in congress to heel and quickly gets his infrastructure plans enacted along with the deportation of a couple of million criminals there will be millions of new job openings available, some of them very high paying positions.

If you hope to enlighten the denizens here who are objectively pro-Pumpkinhead, I expect you will fail.

The last bunch of people to use that turn of phrase turned the Middle East into a charnel house…I suppose the training camps for the Trump death squads can be found somewhere north, south, east, and west of NYC?

I see Tweedledee and Tweedledum are back and chirping their usual cheerleading for Trump. The pr about the Carrier deal has already fallen apart except for the diehards. It remains as I said the other day – a typical Trump bad deal using other peoples money for mostly pr optics. The final numbers are 1300 jobs moving to Mexico, 730 staying here and a $7 million tax break for the company. The great deal maker managed to lose 1300 out of 2000 jobs and had to pay $7 million to keep the other 730 jobs here temporarily but, what does he care, it’s not his money. The Indiana taxpayers will foot the bill.

The CEO was on CNBC yesterday and explained the even the jobs left are going the way of the dodo bird due to automation but they will still get to keep those tax breaks. Suckers! I’m sure nobody wants to talk about the Boeing nonsense today as that idiocy should speak for itself.

Also, it looks like the Killary Clintonite Cult will probably surpass Obama’s vote total in 2012 (65 million plus). It appears that the majority of voters in this election are part of an extraordinarily large cult.

@Hugh,

You now how it goes here now. Chomsky (in 2014!), Warren, Sanders, Reich, et al. get minimal credit for leading the charge but Trump gets full credit for jumping on the bandwagon.

Note that the US (and elsewhere) ‘religious right’ are extremely right wing economically as well. They have long been supported in many countries by all sorts of shadowy organisations (CIA for one) as a front against communism, trade unions and all the rest.

I was doing some research on an infamous (and ‘christian’ of course) anti-LGBTI person here in Australia and found he was right up to his neck in the 80s and 90s working with all sorts of right wing ‘christian’ groups overseas in places like the Philippines and helping the oppression (heck extermination) of left wing groups, trade unions, teachers and all the rest.

To expect these people will support anything ‘left wing’ economically is political naivety of the first order, just check the voting records of the religious right politicians to see that.

Why do you thing the Republicans courted these people? Because they could be counted on to support right wing economic issues, provided they were thrown the odd bone against women and LGBTI people.

Donald Trump has added rabid so called ‘christian’ (Seventh-day Adventist) another anti-LGBTI, anti-women nutcase member to his cabinet….bit of a pattern here..and a ‘flat tax believer’ to boot.

“Ben Carson, a retired neurosurgeon, has been picked to lead the Department of Housing and Urban Development.”
“For the past two years, Carson has used a strong anti-LGBTI rhetoric, comparing same-sex marriage to bestiality and said LGBTI people are ‘abnormal’.
He doesn’t believe marriage equality is a civil right, that it is inconsistent with his religious beliefs and said judges who ruled in favor should be fired.
The former surgeon also believes homosexuality is a choice and, in 2015, claimed prisons make people gay.”

Che pasa has just made an implicit prediction. When he mocks the view that “at least Trump won’t start WWIII the way Clinton would have” . . . he default-predicts that yes-Trump-will start WWIII the way the Clintosceptics predict Clinton would have.

Some Clintosceptics, such as myself, have phrased our prediction more narrowly. I predicted that Trump won’t start World War Clinton with Russia specifically the way Clinton very well may have. He “may” start WWIII with somebody else. I hope not. WWIII with anybody would be bad. But WW Clinton with Russia would be worst of all because we and Russia have enough nukes to exterminate all innocent bystander life on earth, as well as eachother. If we get to the end of Trump without having a thermonuclear exchange with Russia, then I will have been proved right in that particular prediction.

I have one other prediction I can make with confidence. Trump will stand by and allow the R + 6 to track and find and exterminate every single jihadi rebel in Syria. Every. Single. One. And that is a good thing. And that is another reason I voted for Trump. To exterminate the Jihad in Syria and to weaken the Wahhabi Jihadi filth who rule Qatar and Saudi Arabia.

About prediction three . . . no more Free Trade Treason agreements, I don’t think Trump is smart enough to understand the problem. He thinks it is about “good deals”. Sessions understands that it is about Free Trade Traitors against America. But I don’t know if Sessions will have any influence on Trump from his perch at Justice. Probably Trump will end up giving us Trade Treason Lite, because he will think “the deal” is all that matters, and he will think he got us a “good deal”. Oh well. So I will be disappointed in not getting my Big Reason Three for voting for Trump: No more Free Trade Treason Agreements.

@ Peter

Yes, you’ve probably got that right, but at least Trump ran on freeing up energy, while Obama and Clinton acted the same but pretended the opposite. Energy will probably be the area where I most dislike what Trump will do.

But honestly, I don’t intend to spend any more energy arguing with idiots who only want to criticize and obstruct a Prez who has not even been sworn in yet.

Folks like that should just eat shit and die. Same as I said about the Republicans when Obama got elected.

Losers are losers. And when I see them act this way, I realize they deserve their suffering.

You now how it goes here now. Chomsky (in 2014!), Warren, Sanders, Reich, et al. get minimal credit for leading the charge but Trump gets full credit for jumping on the bandwagon.

Yep, the so called non-existent left in many countries fought the fight over that, borrowed some tactics from LGBTI lobbies too, bit by bit they got others on-side and it was dead in the water in the US and many other places. Anyone noticed all the huge demonstrations against it all over the place during the last few years?

As I was saying about fatuous emotional blackmail…

Yes, they managed to kick the can forward as far as this November. Had they not done so, it would most certainly have been enacted by now. Had Trump not won the election, it would also most certainly have passed in the lame-duck Congress. The pro-TPP forces in the Diet were loudly crowing about how they were going to steamroller over the opposition, so the TPP would have been a lock at that point.

“Trump stopped the TPP” is not logically equivalent to “Activists didn’t stop the TPP”. Stop insulting the readership’s intelligence by pretending that it is.

@XFR

The Clintonite wankers Chomsky, Warren and Sanders were leading the poor rubes down to the veal pens while supposedly leading the fight against the TPP. None of them have any real power in government but they do serve the status quo as the heralds of the opposition without threatening anything. They fell in line dropping all their progressive posturing to support the Queen who called the TPP the Gold Standard and Chomsky is so senile now he can’t stop grumbling about the mistake made by the unwashed masses.

@Bill

The DNC platform committee rejected any language condemning the TPP which means they supported it as good corporate parasites would. Your speculation about an altered reality is based on two false narratives, one that Clinton wasn’t a liar and wouldn’t flip-flop on the Gold Standard TPP and that the republicans wouldn’t have had overwhelming support from the democrats to push this trash through.

@ks

You poor little snowflake, you should follow the sage advice given by your Kenyan Usurper to ‘look forward not back’ even if he used that advice as cover for not prosecuting war criminals and torturers.

It’s probably asking too much to expect you to understand the difference between the political kabuki and the actual sausage making in DC. While the theatre of the absurd raged Obama and the republicans worked together to bail out the Banksters, make the Bush tax cuts for the rich permanent, expand the surveillance state and make war, all hand in hand like moon-eyed lovers. All the rest was just chaff to keep the rubes distracted and it apparently worked very well on you.

The Clintonoids aren’t very good at this game and their pathetic Putin is Coming ploy along with the Soros/Stein recount just shows how inept, desperate and pathetic they are.

ks: “Hey, let’s give him a chance….”

But you know the real reason for that, because deep in their hearts they love the idea of all the ‘uppity wimmin especially those hairy lesbian feminists, niggahs, spicks, pooftahs and trannies’ being put in their place…

@Hugh

I didn’t take you for a rube who would believe what these parasites say before they actually vote on something. We heard a lot of the same rhetoric about fast-track but it sailed through paving the way for the TPP.

Many of the republicans and democrats were facing election and they had to react to the discontent at home over the TPP but only until the election was over when they could return to flip-flopping for another two to four years. This is where some people mistakenly believe that their activism actually produces results when they usually get lied to and then ignored when their representative shows who they actually represent. In this case that would be the Business Roundtable.

@ Lisa:

But you know the real reason for that, because deep in their hearts they love the idea of all the ‘uppity wimmin especially those hairy lesbian feminists, niggahs, spicks, pooftahs and trannies’ being put in their place…

You are increasingly deranged.

@ ultra December 7, 2016

Mark: “Got any reliable evidence in support of this allegation?”

Where’s your evidence? That’s right, Mark, you have none.

The U.S. police have been killing blacks, mentally ill people, etc., by the hundreds without justification for years and years and years. Videos of such cold-blooded murder are not difficult to find on the internet to anyone who wishes to discover the truth. One website alone, Rawstory (www.rawstory.com), has dozens and dozens of articles about this and the chilling videos that prove it. Thousands of innocent people (generally, members of minority groups) are accused and locked up for crimes that they never commit. An example: About 50% of the inmates on death row in my state turned out to be innocent, after DNA tests were conducted. Our criminal system, like our system of government, is a mess. Under Trump, it will definitely get worse.

Gee I’m sorry your comprehension of the English language is as massively and profoundly inferior as your grasp of how to garner political support amongst those who should be your natural political supporters.

Che Passa did his usual schtick of “I’m going to make statements and not adduce even one shred of evidence in support” and when challenged by me to support the following statements:

1. Hundreds have already been assaulted or otherwise harmed
2. If he’s allowed to proceed, those at risk of direct harm — whether scapegoats or not — will include most Americans and many around the world.
3. This is a man who praises Philippine death squads, after all.
4. We already have uniformed killers roaming the country and killing at random.
5. There’s little or nothing to prevent organizing and systematizing what already exists into fully functional death squads

Could or would not do so.

People like me have been warning for literally decades at the erosion of the protections against tyranny in the USA. Habeas Corpus is now effectively a dead letter in American jurisprudence a situation actively connived at by the American “left” and gobshites who supported this erosion such as the overwhelming majority of commenters here can’t see what the problem is. The hypocrisy and short-sightedness is revolting. The good thing about the way in which you and the people here behave is that it ensures your political impotence for at least another generation. It’s a pity about the people whose livelihoods and rights are actively being trampled on though.

(And no HVD if you’re reading this I have neither forgotten nor forgiven how you tried to whore out Federalist Society talking points to me of all people)

You should go away and read the story about the little boy who cried “wolf” and as you’re plainly as comprehension impaired as you are arrogant I’ll help you by pointing out that the point of the story is that there really was a wolf.

Ian please use some other WordPress template – the 100 comments limit on this one is pathethic

@Lisa,

“But you know the real reason for that, because deep in their hearts they love the idea of all the ‘uppity wimmin especially those hairy lesbian feminists, niggahs, spicks, pooftahs and trannies’ being put in their place…”

Yes. Actually, it’s not even deep in their hearts. It’s right out in the open. Especially now that their other excuses (e.g. OMG the white working class! OMG economic aniexty!, etc.) are falling by the wayside. After screaming for God knows how many years about “Da Man” and “Da System, Man” and despite all the tough talk, they roll over for Trump like puppies begging for tummy rubs.

Yes Mark I am reading this and no Mark I have never done Federalist Society talking points. You and I had a bit of a kerfuffle about jury nullification which I argued was a fact regardless of the aspirational goal of having a jury follow the law as instructed by the judge. This came up in the context of the Guardian blocking online comments about the case of the guy who beheaded a British soldier I believe, supposedly to protect the jury pool from potentially influencing information. I argued that jury nullification was probably less of an evil than the possibility of barring comments like Ian’s that restored some balance in the consideration of the defendant while leaving the government as the only source of news and/or information about the case. That is anything but a Federalist viewpoint. You’re the one demanding citations – well show me where I have been a mouthpiece for Federalist talking points.

Otherwise I have generally agreed with you.

@ Lisa

Jeez, can we at least be clear about ONE THING?

To repeat, to me all religion is rank superstition, so it follows that anyone who places faith in superstition over reason is at least partly crazy, and from there it follows that their feelings and opinions can never be considered persuasive to me.

I hope you can take some comfort that we at least agree on this. And spare me any future diatribes about the evils of various religions. It’s almost like you are making a spirited argument as to why I should use toilet paper.

Separately, now that I know you are in Australia, how does your constant fear of anti-LGBTQ people stack up against your fear of salt water crocodiles and common brown snakes? 🙂

Mark: insert “comment-page-1/” before the “#” in the URL to get a functional backlink. And please remember what I said about letting nitwits get you angry.

Ché: Yes, you are officially a nitwit in my book until you provide Mark with credible citations for your assertions. Put up or shut up.

ks: Repeatedly and incessantly posting things with no discernible connection to the OP or any previous comment is called spamming. Please stop.

@ks

Chuck Jones hasn’t worked in a factory for thirty years, if he ever did, he is a union boss who enjoys much better benefits than any factory worker. He’s probably a good Clintonite who can’t help himself from striking out at Santa for bringing good cheer for the workers but nothing but coal for his poor performance.

Your reading comprehension seems a bit retarded, which is no surprise. Jones said he got a couple of mildly threatening calls and then said he was used to getting actual death threats which probably come from his own steelworkers just as these mild allusions probably did.

If you knew anything about unions, or anything else, you might understand that many union workers despise their union management class who seem more aligned with corporate and political interests than with workers.

@ Peter

Well, take comfort in the fact that your comment and the response thereto provides the clearest possible illustration of ks’ limitations in the shortest possible time.

Even the clearest and most indisputable facts instantly dissolve in the mist of his ranting. Never expect a different result, as we all know what that would signify lol.

Oh btw, I know this is a thread about a Trump speech saying he’s going to do certain things so therefore we shouldn’t talk (spam?) about what he actually says and does but if I may, please see the afternoon version of “Draining The Swamp”.

It looks like fast food magnate Andrew Puzder will be the pick for Labor Secretary. He’s against raising the minimum wage, expanding eligibility for overtime pay and is a big advocate of robots replacing human labor.

Thanks, now you can carry on with your more relevant musings…

Peter, shrill hysteria suits you but it’s not an effective distraction though it’s all you can do.

So, thanks for some more of those “clear and indisputable” facts. Now, the union boss is “mob like”, the death threats were merely vulgarians who were probably steelworkers, Soros again because well Soros is always involved in everything, dead voters have now joined the imaginary millions of illegal voters who all voted for Clinton and so on.

You do a good job of blowing your Daddy Trump’s smoke. Unfortunately, it’s not going to end well.

Then there is the social messaging that has been given by Trump and all these racists, misogynists and homo/trans phobes are coming out of the closet feeling all empowered:

http://nymag.com/thecut/2016/11/90-percent-of-teachers-say-trumps-win-is-bad-for-students.html

“90 Percent of Teachers Say Trump’s Win Has Had a Negative Effect in Classrooms”
“The day after Donald Trump was elected, incidents of racist and misogynistic harassment were reported across the country. Since then the trend has continued, and at least one expert has said the trend is more widespread now than in the weeks following 9/11. And a new survey conducted by the Southern Poverty Law Center shows the problem is just as pervasive in schools.

More than 10,000 teachers, counselors, and administrators from K–12 schools across the country were surveyed, and 90 percent say their school’s climate has been negatively impacted by Trump’s election. Eighty percent describe “heightened anxiety and concern” from vulnerable students about their futures, and 40 percent say they’ve heard derogatory language directed at students of color, Muslims, immigrants, and people based on gender or sexual orientation.”

One teacher is quoted that sums it up:
“In the week since the election, I have personally had to deal with the following issues: 1) Boys inappropriately grabbing and touching girls, even after they said no (this never happened until after the election); 2) White students telling their friends who are Hispanic or of color that their parents are going to be deported and that they would be thrown out of school; 3) White students going up to students of color who are total strangers and hurling racial remarks at them, such as, ‘Trump is going [to] throw you back over the wall, you know?’ or ‘We can’t wait until you and the other brownies are gone’; 4) The use of the n-word by white students in my class and in the hallway. ”

——–

So you see markfromireland .. I’m not being ‘deranged’, this is actually happening and I can fairly confidently predict that it is going to get worse as the extremely right wing (and religious) Trump Govt pushes those racist/etc buttons more and more to distract from their economic and other coming failures.

To quote President Johnston:
LBJ was once asked why poor and middle class Republicans vote against their own interest, this was his response.
“If you can convince the lowest white man that he’s better that the best coloured man, he won’t know you are picking his pocket. Hell, give him someone to look down on and he’ll empty his pockets for you”.

@ Peter, @ ks

Anyone who doesn’t get that union leaders in general sold their constituents out long ago, or that this Carrier guy in particular failed to save ANY jobs, is only fit to take over the spittoon-emptying job if/after Ron accepts Ian’s invitation to leave.

You can’t fix ideological stupidity.

@XFR

Ordinarily I wouldn’t respond to your name calling or anyone else’s. It’s childish and stupid. But in this case, I’ll try something and see if it gives you a clue.

First, I won’t post links because they trigger Ian’s moderation bots, and I don’t want to add any more to his workload. He’s been churning out detailed posts at a remarkable pace, and I’d rather he do that than try to wrangle yet more comments with links in them.

Second, I’m almost certain that Mark knows what the kinds of incidents I’m referring to, but when he’s in attack mode, he doesn’t care about “evidence,” he cares about attacking his targets. The sad thing is he’s attacking the wrong targets. Any one can fall into that trap. I did it just yesterday when I lit into a good friend for not seeing the existential threat he and so many others are facing. He’s not my enemy, but I sure let him have it.

Lisa is not Mark’s enemy. I’m not his enemy. Ultra isn’t his enemy. Etc. I have often agreed with him and shared his rage at a ruling clique that consistently fails to do the right thing, indeed which seems intent on committing one atrocity after another in defiance of good judgment and moral probity. In my view the advent of Trump and his cronies and loyalists in the White House is going to make those failures orders of magnitude worse.

Those who can express their loyalty and obedience sufficiently strongly may do fine.  Then again, they shouldn’t count on it. They shouldn’t count on anything.

As for incidents he’s been banging on about:

1. Hundreds have already been assaulted or otherwise harmed

The Southern Poverty Law Center has been keeping an extensive list, as have others (Google is your friend) but there was an incident in Albuquerque the other day that is illustrative. A female customer at a supermarket a couple of blocks from the University and just down the street from the Peace and Justice Center, was assaulted by an Anglo woman who may or may not have been a customer. The first woman was wearing a hijab. The Anglo woman yelled and cursed at her and tried to pull her hijab off and told her to go back wherever it was she came from, yadda yadda. Other customers and staff intervened. They protected the first woman from the continued verbal assaults and threats from the Anglo woman. They tried to calm the situation, but of course it didn’t work. When people get into that state, it’s almost impossible to calm them down. The woman who was assaulted for wearing a hijab got away safely, so at least there was that. She came back to the store later to thank the staff. This sort of thing and worse is extensively documented and Mark knows how to find the records.

2. If he’s allowed to proceed, those at risk of direct harm — whether scapegoats or not — will include most Americans and many around the world.

I am passionately opposed to scapegoating, and I will intervene to shame the scapegoater and protect the scapegoat from harm in any way I can. The incident at the supermarket was a form of scapegoating. That sort of thing happens, in my view, because of campaign rhetoric to target and blame various victims — such as Muslims, Mexicans, “illegals,” “thugs,” dissenters and protesters, and so on for what ails the Caucasian Id. That blame-casting and targeting rhetoric gave permission to those who wished to do harm to their “enemies” to do it. And so it has been happening. Ultimately, since a majority of those who voted voted for someone other than Trump, all of them, and even those who didn’t vote are potential targets. Don’t think it couldn’t happen here. The US has been down this road before. And it is all too easy to extend the targets beyond our borders.

3. This is a man who praises Philippine death squads, after all.

I would take Duterte’s word for it over Trump’s any day. Duterte isn’t trying to con Americans, he doesn’t seem to care what Americans think. He is, however, operating state sanctioned death squads and encouraging vigilante “justice”. And he’s said that Trump was fine with it, or at least he “understood.” Great. It’s a gross human rights violation but what the hay, a president has to do what a president has to do.

4. We already have uniformed killers roaming the country and killing at random.

Over 4,000 people have been killed by police in the US since mid-2013 when more or less comprehensive record keeping began — by volunteers, btw, since there was no government record keeping and it wasn’t of any particular media interest except in local markets where the killings could be sensationalized for ratings. About half of those killed posed no threat or such a minor threat that their summary execution was irrational and unwarranted. Hundreds of millions of dollars have been paid out on behalf of victims. The killing is also pretty random even though some populations are more vulnerable than others. Mentally ill, homeless, black and brown young men are all particularly vulnerable, but no one is entirely safe from violent policing, and no one can know when they’ll be the next target.

5. There’s little or nothing to prevent organizing and systematizing what already exists into fully functional death squads.

I’ve been an activist against violent policing for decades, and contra Mark’s belief, my activism has had some success, most recently in Albuquerque where my focus and goal was to significantly reduce or stop killings by the Albuquerque Police Department. Other activists focused on other goals and other aspects of the problem of violent policing. I’d say we did pretty well. Killings by APD have been reduced from about one a month (sometimes more) to three this year so far. The designated kill squad (Repeat Offenders Project) was disbanded. The police department still has snipers and a SWAT unit, but they are under much stricter controls and supervision. Crisis intervention and mental health care workers are assigned to defuse and resolve situations without violence, and most police officers are able to use deescalation techniques rather than violence. This is a major change in the behavior of Albuquerque police officers toward the public. It wouldn’t have happened if so many people hadn’t come together to say “enough; this ends now.” And it probably wouldn’t have happened if the DoJ hadn’t stepped in with a consent decree and court monitoring, both demanded by activists against violent policing.

But there is no permanent success in these matters. The way it used to be in Albuquerque could be restored at any time, and the killing could easily ramp up again. Duterte’s model may be unacceptable, but similar models are not unknown in this country.

The political situation in the US is highly unstable. Plenty of interests are prepared to take advantage of the situation and exploit crises for their own benefit. It’s an intrinsically dangerous situation for vulnerable and targeted populations, and it could spiral out of control at any time. I don’t favor stability for its own sake, partly because vulnerable populations aren’t necessarily protected under the status quo. But in this case, the dangers to the vulnerable are magnified by the instability.



@ Lisa

“My lot” is those who give a fuck about the rule of law and accountability and civil liberties and no lying and refusing to live with major unresolved contradictions and those who promote them.

We have already lost what matters most to us, while “your lot” have made steady gains and become increasingly demanding, arrogant, and hostile to those who were not favorite pets of the corrupt corporate Democratic Party.

Now we’ve all been dragged into fascism. But we were there before Trump, and your lot only cared about your selfish interests. So, your fears now may be somewhat justified, but your lot has certainly earned them with your blind adherence to the neoliberal Democratic Party.

realitychecker “My lot” …. We have already lost what matters most to us.

You have lost economically, with job and income losses. So has everyone else that is not the top 10%. Since Blacks, women, LGBTI, etc people tend to have a far higher percentage in the lower income groups they have lost that too. And they nearly always start at a lower base level in the first place.

Women have lower incomes for the same jobs, LGBTI people find it far harder to get jobs in the first place and have far higher unemployment levels (as well as homelessness).

So we have gained a bit in reducing legal and social discrimination …in what way does that affect ‘your lot’ negatively? Tell me, I’d love to know how (say) better transgender rights have taken money out of your pocket or made you unemployed? Has marriage equality made you poorer somehow?

That’s such a classic symptom of how ‘your lot’ has been dudded and conned, in that you think that anything ‘our lot’ gains somehow negatively impacts you in any material way. Sod your blasted ‘psychological wage’ of feeling all so superior and go and concentrate on money, instead of letting your pockets be picked all the time by the wealthy.

“So, of course, you are now butt-hurt and scared, but your lot has only itself to blame …”
Oh sigh…. didn’t you read what I wrote about how politics actually works?

No one ‘pandered’ to those groups, they fought hard for everything tiny little thing they gained and have to keep fighting all the time to just maintain it. The only reason they got anywhere is because they got off their arses to fight for things.

And let us not forget along the way, because it was in their interest too, they fought for workers and wages and benefits, something ‘your lot’ seem to have forgotten how to do.

Now your minority group is going to be conned and screwed over again. Oh they will pander to your racism, sexism, homophobia and all the rest and ‘your lot’ will feel all self important for awhile, feeling free to run around assaulting women, beating up old gay men…what fun. Guess what, you are going to continue to lose wages, jobs and benefits just as you always have done, because to be blunt you are mugs and the elites play you like a fiddle.

Look it is going to be tough, but unlike ‘your group’ they are organised and will fight tooth and nail, they will (so unlike ‘your group’) ally together and fight in common cause. And let us not forget, together they are the significant majority…..
In the end any major economic direction changes is going to come from them, they have been doing all the fighting so far.

As I asked, how much money have you lost from your pocket because of (say) marriage equality?
Not a cent, not one. Yet ‘your lot’ let yourself get manipulated into getting all hot and bothered about it. As I said ..mugs. Lenin would call them ‘useful idiots’.

Form unions, make them bigger and more powerful by being inclusive and including women, other races and so on (instead of, as so many do, excluding them). Use that clout to fight for better jobs, wages and economic and social policies. Hard work sure, but it would succeed. And that is just one option.

MarkfromIreland: “Gee I’m sorry your comprehension of the English language is as massively and profoundly inferior as your grasp of how to garner political support amongst those who should be your natural political supporters.”

I assume you mean ‘among’ rather than the archaic ‘amongst.’ But now that I think about, perhaps it’s appropriate, because your cognitive processes are archaic too.

My only concern here is the truth. I could care less about these so-called political supporters and their feelings.

MarkfromIreland: “People like me have been warning for literally decades at the erosion of the protections against tyranny in the USA. Habeas Corpus is now effectively a dead letter in American jurisprudence a situation actively connived at by the American “left.”

So you have been sitting on your butt and ‘warning’ about the erosion of protections against tyranny. You’re such an internet warrior!

You have little understanding how the left operates, or even what is meant by the ‘left.’ You’re probably dumb enough to believe that Clinton and Obama represent the left (they do not). I am a member of the ACLU, an organization that has been very active in fighting against the erosion of such protections by filing lawsuits in the courts. They sometimes win and they sometimes lose. I don’t need to hear any lectures from an ignoramus like yourself. People who think like you are part of the problem.

For some hard facts:

“The phrase “American dream” was invented during the Great Depression. It comes from a popular 1931 book by the historian James Truslow Adams, who defined it as “that dream of a land in which life should be better and richer and fuller for everyone.”

In the decades that followed, the dream became a reality. Thanks to rapid, widely shared economic growth, nearly all children grew up to achieve the most basic definition of a better life — earning more money and enjoying higher living standards than their parents had.

These days, people are arguably more worried about the American dream than at any point since the Depression. But there has been no real measure of it, despite all of the data available. No one has known how many Americans are more affluent than their parents were — and how the number has changed.”

“The index is deeply alarming. It’s a portrait of an economy that disappoints a huge number of people who have heard that they live in a country where life gets better, only to experience something quite different.”

“It begins with children who were born in 1940, less than a decade after the publication of Adams’s book, “The Epic of America.” The researchers went into the project assuming that most of these children had earned more than their parents — but were surprised to learn that nearly all of them had, said David Grusky, one of the researchers, also of Stanford. About 92 percent of 1940 babies had higher pretax household earnings at age 30 than their parents had at the same age. (The results were similar at older ages and for post-tax earnings.)”

“For babies born in 1980 — today’s 36-year-olds — the index of the American dream has fallen to 50 percent: Only half of them make as much money as their parents did. In the industrial Midwestern states that effectively elected Donald Trump, the share was once higher than the national average. Now, it is a few percentage points lower.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/12/08/opinion/the-american-dream-quantified-at-last.html

Wow a LGBTI person hitting the facts … heck worse a (despised by everyone) trans woman… Maybe my working class Glasgow roots are showing….

@ V. Arnold

About 20 years ago, Ms Ché’s workplace had a union election to disaffiliate from a totally ineffective union that essentially handed over every gain the workers had made in the past 50 or 60 years, agreed to cuts in salaries and benefits whenever management asked, went along with eliminating “unnecessary” workplace rules and so on.

They would have the choice of joining the Teamsters — who made quite a pitch — or another more or less milquetoast union that at least said they would fight to get some of the previous concessions rescinded.

Management was terrified of the Teamsters. One of their other branch’s workers were represented by Teamsters, and they were getting a much better deal in every way than Ms. Ché’s branch.

Management went full bore against affiliation with the Teamsters, and many workers were afraid of them too. When it came down to the election, the milquetoast union won by 12 or 13 votes. Management breathed a huge sigh of relief. The Teamster represented branch then got an increase in pay and benefits for their workers after fairly brief negotiations. Ms. Ché’s branch got no increase, a higher worker contribution to benefits, and a slightly less burdensome grievance procedure after long negotiations and a brief walkout. Whoo-hoo.

In bed with management? You bet. Sure. I don’t doubt the Teamsters had made their own bed with management, but they consistently got a better deal for their members. As time went on, the Teamster represented branch did much better than Ms Ché’s branch. The contrast was striking.

Management was intent on squeezing workers every which way, but they weren’t able to do it to the Teamster represented branch.

If they’d been the only worker union, though, we wouldn’t have seen the contrast, and it may have appeared that the Teamsters were almost as eager to screw the workers as management was.

Ché Pasa
December 9, 2016
@ V. Arnold

Okaaaaay, so what’s your point?
I’m relating my experience with local #206 in Portland, Oregon in 19?? (I can’t remember the date).
We, our warehouse workers, were told to shut up at a meeting regarding negotiations for the next contract. I was there; and from that day on I said fuck unions!
I’m glad to hear Mrs. Che’s union helped her; however, my bitter experience forever shaded me against unions.
And it’s interesting the UAW has been very supportive towards the foreign auto plants locating in the southern U.S. for half the wages of GM and Ford workers.
Unions are now, for the most part, worthless sycophants of the U.S. MIC.

@Lisa,

As usual, well said. As you can see from all the whining, childish name calling and irrationality that followed they can’t face the actual reality so they just retreat into their usual diatribes. The usual suspects have not, are not and will not join anything. They will carp from an Olympian remove.

As Che Pasa pointed out, as Trump continues his con and further humiliates and embarrasses them it’s only going to get worse. The rationalizations have gotten incredibly absurd almost like a left wing version of Free Republic aka Freepers. They blather on about accountability, the rule of law, etc. while Trump laughs at them while occasionally pandering to them with a tweet or rally. Meanwhile, he continues to do what he does like today’s appointment of Goldman Sachs president & COO Gary Cohn to be National Economic Council Director.

I mean even Trump has moved on from the Carrier deal now that the crony capitalist scam has run his pr course but here are the champions of the WWC still carrying water for it and trying to divert attention from the meat of it by attacking the union guy who correctly called bs on it.

The alt-left folks here traded their supposed principles for vanity. Shame. At least the alt-right folks stand to make a few bucks off the deal and get some actual power but the alt-left folks are reduced to hoping a few dollars fall of Trump’s wheelbarrow (aka “he might do some good things”) as he wheels his plunder into Trump tower.

@ V. Arnold

No, no. My point was that her unions didn’t serve the workers in her unit. The one that was dismissed was a complete management tool; the one that was voted in was an almost complete management tool. The Teamsters represented a different unit, and regardless of their management toolishness, they actually and consistently got a better deal for their workers. So much better for the most part that there was no comparison. Ms Ché voted to join the Teamsters, but the milquetoast union won.

I wasn’t a union member for more than a few months very late in my working life, and so I never saw any of this from the inside. Nevertheless, I don’t doubt your experience with the Teamsters; I’ve heard so many similar stories. I suppose if they’re the only worker union in the field, they can pretty much do as they want, including telling their members to shut up. But when there’s more than one (I think there were three unions and a couple of professional associations bargaining with her employer), it behooves all of them to at least nod politely to workers, and if they want to grow in membership and clout, they need to actually do something on their members’ behalf, not just say they will or blow off the workers altogether.

Certain political parties and candidates might want to take heed. Then again, maybe not.

Cheers.

[I saw part of that Genghis Khan picture you referred to. It’ll take me while to get through it, but it’s interesting –and far more authentic — than the one I saw years ago.]

@ks

This is great news as Trump jerks the chain of all the mouth-breathers who will grind themselves into the dirt chasing their own tails over this harmless promotion of a TV show. There must be some national security issues that some nitwit will seek to use to call for impeachment.

Perhaps the Donald could donate any money he gets from this to the Clinton Foundation to avoid the emoluments clause.

@ ks

I hope you live on or hang out on Fifth Avenue, oh man of conviction.

You may get the nomination for Raver-in-Chief. The Senate would quickly confirm you.

@RC

It’s fascinating watching the true believers here and elsewhere trying to project all the personality traits, lying, betrayal, con and a dismissive nature onto Trump who hasn’t even had a chance yet to do much of anything besides keeping two large promises and not throwing anyone under the bus except maybe Chris Christy, I think even he is hanging on the side of the bus.

The Red Queen and the Kenyan Usurper have repeatedly displayed these traits and have done tremendous damage around the world as well as at home with their machinations. It seems these snowflakes are demanding that Trump copy the political parasites they have and apparently continue to worship or they will wet their pants and continue to sob and spew.

@ Peter

Yes, one might almost be tempted to think they have a psychology degree or something lol.

I do have one, and so my amusement at their pathetically transparent antics, their total lack of self-awareness, is unlimited.

Schadenfreude never tasted so sweet. 🙂

@Ron,

“OR you could all just freaking admit you’re wrong and join the rest of humanity. But that would take psychologically separating yourselves from your new bff’s the alt-right that other stubborn group of idiots who can’t ever admit they’ve made a mistake.”

Now you know that’s not going to happen. It’s too pedestrian for most of the folks here. No, they are going to continue to double down on the vain “Cassandra” angle and pat each other on the back.

They are really backed into a corner as this continues to devolve right in front of them. The CIA thing is exploding today, Trump appointed ExxonMobil CEO to be SoS, John Bolton will be be Deputy SoS, Nate Silver tweeted an analysis of the impact Comey/FBI shenanigans so all they can do now is taunt us and fluff each other.

Ah the ‘Trump affect’ and all these people now feeling they have permission to shout out the invective they’ve been stifling for years…and showing what they really think and feel.

Peter: ‘safe-space’, ‘play-doh’, ‘safety-pin’, ‘mother’s little losers’, ‘snowflake’……

You do realise that what you are really saying is that basic politeness, empathy and respect for people and their rights is something you hate …. That you feel the great urge to shout out invective to achieve what ..make you feel more like a man? Or is that suppressed ‘bratty little boy’ behaviour, pulling girls hair and hitting (always) smaller kids?

It is not funny, nor does it make you look tough or ‘manly’ … the exact opposite in fact, most definitely doesn’t make you look intelligent. What next, grabbing some (small and alone of course) women’s pussy?

Reasonable people do not in any way support Trump or is that too difficult for you fucking morons to understand?

Yes, it is.

@Lisa, Ron,

Notice how, buried in among the usual “characterization” game, that talking about what Trump is actually doing now gets downplayed as mere “data points” that don’t get to some sort of “essence” of blah, blah, blah….too funny.

@reality/Morocco,

I guess when all else fails, continue to attack and play to the crowd. That you are still holding yourself up as a champion of rational thought when you obviously haven’t exhibited it, is well…sad but not surprising.

Again with the projection and repetition from you two. You are now engaging in such desperate and bizarre rationalizations “…plucked the head off the Vampire Squid and Multinational Oil…” that the foolishness speaks for itself.

@ Lisa

Aren’t you in Australia? How is Trump going to do anything to your ass?

“Note the common characteristics of all these reports coming out, male attacking a female.”

Well, not that it makes it right, but I’m going to guess they targeted you because they did not think you are a female.

In any event, as I have told you previously, I would and repeatedly have stood up for ANYONE who I witnessed being bullied or victimized by criminal behavior, so in my case you are preaching to the choir when you relate such anecdotes, and I wonder why you never seem to be able to incorporate that fact into your rhetoric.

If you were not in Australia, you would have the Second Amendment to help protect you, and would not have to rely on people like me, i.e., people who, unlike you, feel a duty to the overall community that sometimes transcends or even conflicts with consideration of our own personal self-interest.

@realitychecker/Morocco Bama,

You don’t wonder any such thing. You’re just deflecting and baiting with bigotry as usual.

@ Ultra December 9, 2016

So you have been sitting on your butt and ‘warning’ about the erosion of protections against tyranny.

@ Ultra December 9, 2016

No I leave that sort of thing to ineffective people like you.

You have little understanding how the left operates, or even what is meant by the ‘left.’

On the contrary as a conservative active in conservative politics I understand them very well. “Know your enememy” is the same good advice that it always was. A major part of the reason why people like you are so easy to defeat politically is that apart from the fact that you’re intellectually shallow your behaviour and tactics are entirely predictable.

markfromireland: “Know your enememy” (sic) is the same good advice that it always was. A major part of the reason why people like you are so easy to defeat politically is that apart from the fact that you’re intellectually shallow your behaviour and tactics are entirely predictable.”

We know the same about conservative ones too….. and when people like the Democrat elites (who are really centre or even centre right conservatives) are got out of the way, they are quite easy to beat.

The reason is simple, conservatives believe in an economic and social hierarchy with systemic injustice, from the top (white, male, heterosexual … hmm… often claiming to be ‘christian’ in the west) to the bottom (pick just about everyone else). They believe in using the full force of Govt violence and economic sanctions to maintain that (but they don’t want to pay for it).

At its heart it is a belief that those at the top are ‘morally superior’ (even when they endlessly prove otherwise) and those further down are ‘morally inferior’. That they ‘choose’ that and thus it is their fault for what happens to them.

Those at the top, being ‘real humans’ have to be rewarded and given incentives to do things, those at the bottom are just ‘beasts’ who have to be kicked hard to do things. So they are long on severe punishment of those lower down for even the smallest infraction and long on tolerance, forgiveness and rewarding those at the top (no matter what they do).

So hence for a conservative it is perfectly logical to give tax cuts to the wealthy (as they deserve it by being better) and cut benefits or raise taxes for those on the bottom (because they deserve that). Overall they support (and love) hierarchies, so (taking an example from Australia) they believe that bullying at school of those weaker or part of a minority is actually a ‘good thing’ because it helps maintain the ‘social hierarchy’.

To say that they are racist, misogynist, homophobic and transphobic is a redundancy.

If they are (which is common) homosocial, (typical of those from elite schools, armed forces etc), they actually hate women seeing them as just necessary wombs and things to be used for sex.
At the most extreme they believe in a strict gender apartheid and complete control of women’s bodies and sexuality.

There are strong elements of (largely because of their normally abusive upbringing) sociopathy amongst them, with low empathy and often see others lower down as ‘non persons’ little better (or worse) than animals.

They have some interesting contradictions, they are anti-sex (except the sex they have of course), very homophobic (even those many amongst them who are, closeted, gay themselves) but amazingly tolerant of child sex abuse and, of course, rape of women….except when it is an elite women that is attacked by a lower down man, then they get all angry, not about the rape but the breaking of class or race boundaries and ‘their property’ being abused.

While against contraception and abortion, they treat children (even their own) terribly. Physical child abuse is seen as ‘normal’ and acceptable to them.

Patriotism to them is a sham for the proles, they will always sell out their own countries as long as they and their group does well.

Easy to beat, yep, because they are such horrible people. By their own efforts a ‘grand coalition’ of left and progressive groups just took down the LGBTI (etc) hating Gov McCory in North Carolina… even as Trump got elected. because the dead (and nearly as conservative) hand of the Dem elites weren’t involved.