Turkey claims it was in Turkish airspace, Russia claims it was in Syrian airspace.
Remember, ISIS gets a lot of its supplies and recruits through the Turkish border, which the Turks have kept open for them. Remember also that Turkish air strikes in Syria have primarily hit Kurds fighting ISIS.
Turkey is not “anti-ISIS,” quite the contrary.
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V. Arnold
Shooting down that jet was a colossally stupid move, IMO. An act of war at least and at best, colassally stupid. At least one pilot is reportedly dead.
The claim by Turkey that the SU-24 was shot down by an F-16 is disputed by the Russian MoD.
They are certain the AA came from the ground. If in fact it was the Turkmen in that area; may the gods help them; they’ll be toast in short order.
Thankfully Putin is not a “hot head”; but, his response will be certain; but, it’s anybodies guess at this point as to what the response will be.
The stupid fu**ing U.S. government just loves the WWIII boogey…
Turkey may well have been a proxy…
V. Arnold
Apparently Putin confirms it was an air to air shoot down.
The SU-24 was in Turkish airspace for about 5 seconds.
This changes everything…
Tom
Erdogan isn’t pro-IS either. Its support is primarily to Ahrar ash-Sham and Turkmen Groups with only humanitarian aid to ISIS areas. Turkey has blanket banned well over 10,000 people from entering its country due to suspicion of wanting to join ISIS or PKK.
Lets be clear here, there is no difference between IS and PKK/PYD. Both conscript child soldiers, sex traffic women, and engage in routine war crimes. IS is just more honest about it. Turkey rightly wants both tackled at once and destroyed at once so they fill the vacuum of a post-Assad Syria.
Had Erdogan been backed in 2013 when Assad stepped over the line and FSA had 70% of the Country liberated, this mess wouldn’t exist today.
Now the conflict has escalated out of control and Erdogan number 1 priority is to ensure the PKK and IS are out of Turkey and can’t spread into Turkey. Second priority is to force Obama kicking and screaming to back his plans to arm the Jaysh al-Fath coalition with MANPADs to challenge the Russian Air Force and new ATGMs to counter the in-flow of new T-72Bs fitted with Shtora and Arena.
FSA still remains a good bet and regardless it will fight on as it refuses any situation where Assad remains and frankly Assad has to go especially after gassing children on live television.
V. Arnold
@ Tom
November 24, 2015
So, you drank the koolaide. A tool from the dark side spouting utter falsities.
I’ll not respond to your bullshit further.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
In the real world (as distinct from whatever parallel Earth of the mind Tom inhabits), either the Assad regime will prevail or ISIS will. Those are the only two choices.
The least bad thing (note I did not say “best” thing) would be for the global capitalists (who own Uncle Sam and give him his orders) to surrender their dreams of owning the planet, and accept Russia and China as equals–which in this specific context would mean STOP HELPING ISIS and let Putin help Assad win.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
Joe Cannon on the U. S. coalition’s foolish help to ISIS:
http://cannonfire.blogspot.com/2015/11/why-does-hillarys-chief-adviser-want.html
markfromireland
Source: The Guardian reportage @ 13:02
markfromireland
@ Tom:
You are of course able to back up your assertions with links to reputable sources and are going to do so.
What am I thinking? No of course you’re not. Unsupported assertions are your stock in trade, they’re all you do.
Which is why they’re fighting each other to the death, yeah right.
Please inform us of which line it was that, in your opinion, Assad “stepped over”.
A salafist tyranny barely indistinguishable from what Daesh are doing does not constitute “liberation” but thank you for making sympathies and agenda crystal clear.
You wish.
He wishes, personally I think the PKK are going to drop the Izzies like the hot tuberous vegetable of your choice and engage in a serious long-term relationship with the Russians.
Yeah right, given their spectacular lack of success and the way in which they obediently hand over their weapons to Daesh that’s bound to be helpful.
In the real world however there are some fairly hefty indications that Obama isn’t going to be coerced into backing up Erdogan and his increasingly dangerous ploys and nor is anyone else. Which is why NATO countries have engaged in an undignified scramble to see who can get their military assets such as missile units out of Turkey the fastest.
I hate to break this to you but working really hard to “the firstest with leastest” to coin a phrase is exactly the opposite of making a serious military commitment.
In the same way that a child’s penknife lying on an anvil being hit repeatedly with a sledge hammer is a good bet, yes.
Now this is one of those situations where again links are required Tom backing up your assertions because what the FSA has done is cave in and run away everytime the come up against concerted and determined opposition.
Except of course that there’s an awful lot of evidence that the gassing was done by the rebels. But like I say thanks for once again making crystal clear to all of us how utterly untrustworthy your unsupported assertions are and what your agenda is.
mfi
EGrise
MFI, thanks for breaking down that horseshit.
Any guesses as to what Turkey hopes to gain from this?
Ian Welsh
That statement from Putin is brutal.
A shadow war between Turkey and Russia is in neither’s interest, but I don’t see how Russia cannot retaliate if Turkey doesn’t at least back down and make a sincere apology.
And the simplest way to retaliate is to start supplying and funding the Kurds, of course.
I cannot imagine what benefit Erdogan thinks he is getting that is worth the risk and cost. (Well, I perhaps can, but he’s wrong.)
Peter*
It’s telling that Mark demands links from Tom to back up his assertions and then claims his fantasy evidence of the Syrian rebels being responsible for the Sarin attack is a fact. There has never been any evidence produced that anyone but Assad possessed Sarin or had the capabilities to produce it, rumor and speculation abounded after the attack but they are neither facts or evidence.
I resisted reaching any conclusion on either side’s claims due to too much confusion after the Sarin attack expecting someone to develop proof and evidence of outside sources for the gas but none have surfaced only repetition of rumors, ergo only one conclusion is logical, Assad is the only one who possessed Sarin gas and he used it on his own citizens.
It’s probably best to view the FSA as a component, now an effective component, of the Army of Conquest with their deadly Tow missiles, they have learned to raise their sights and have downed a Russian chopper which with the punishment they have inflicted on the Axis of Resistance armored columns may stall or even end the Axis offensive.
markfromireland
@ Peter*
Actually what I wrote was very clear. I said there was evidence that the gas attacks had been done by rebels. There is currently a UN investigation trying to determine which of the several parties involved in the war in Syria committed the attacks.
I note that Daesh have a record of using chemical weapons in Irak.
mfi
markfromireland
@ Egrise:
I have no idea what Erdogan and his government hope to gain.
I begin to wonder if Erdogan subscribes to one or other of the forms of Islamic eschatology now contaminating discourse in the region.
Erdogan is a clever man, no I take that back he’s a cunning one but so were Saddam and Qhadaffi and neither of them had a good end.
mfi
markfromireland
For those interested: Microsoft Word – ~5935985.doc – Secretary_General_Report_of_CW_Investigation.pdf
markfromireland
@ Ian.
Yes very brutal especially this :
“a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way.
Then he hammers it home:
• “they are protected by the armed forces of other states, ”
• it’s clear why they are so brazen,
• why they are killing people,
• why they are carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the world including in the heart of Europe.
Ian how much do want to bet that DGSE are about to be given the benefit of a data dump and offered close cooperation?
mfi
Ian Welsh
I’m not sure France is serious either, MFI. It appears that their bombing runs after Paris were on depots well known to locals to be empty of ISIS fighters.
Hollande still wants Assad gone and regime change more than he wants ISIS dead. Europe will turn itself into a police state to root out terrorist cells, and will destroy Schengen over zenophobia, but the Great Game trumps when it comes to actual, effective, military action in the Middle East.
markfromireland
@ Ian
Oh I wasn’t thinking of data about Syria Ian. I was thinking of data, including (but by no stretch of the imagination limited to) industrial data for domestic consumption.
mfi
Ian Welsh
Ah, you have a more devious mind than I do MFI. 😉
Tom
@MFI
http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/erdogan-announces-turkey-will-allow-fsa-to-kobane-pyd-says-talks-continue.aspx?pageID=238&nID=73424&NewsCatID=352
This is just the start. Overall Erdogan allowed the FSA, PKK, and KDP Peshmerga to fight in Kobane, gave them artillery support, and humanitarian support. At this time Erdogan was still trying to flip PYD from PKK before the PKK turned to assassinating police in their sleep.
If Erdogan was really trying to help IS, he would have not allowed reinforcements to Kobane, and turned his artillery on the city. He did neither. He actually facilitated Kurdish Defenses.
Also the US can’t secure its own borders which is largely flat land, how do you expect Turkey to secure its far more mountainous borders which PKK uses at will to infiltrate between Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey?
http://www.kurdwatch.org/
Just one of several Kurdish activists reporting on PKK/PYD Human Rights Violations.
http://eaworldview.com/2015/04/syria-daily-rebel-leader-alloush-visits-turkey/
This is the guy Turkey supports.
I should also point out in February of 2014 the FSA had IS on the ropes and had largely destroyed it when lack of supplies essentially caused them to falter. They did it without air support. Also without Air Support they essentially liberated Idlib.
Had the same air support given to PKK terrorists been given to the FSA instead to recapture Raqqah and Deir Ezzor, this problem would be solved and IS would be Iraq’s problem. As is the mess means Turkey has to do what secures Turkey’s interests, no one elses. And Turkey’s interest is ensuring IS and PKK stay out of Turkey and KDP remains strong in the KRG and can even take responsibility for patrolling Qandil and keeping PKK out.
Above all Erdogan wants to ensure that when the Turkish Military finally commits, its against largely exhausted foes while his forces are still fresh.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
I guess Ian is receiving a sort of compliment; Our Masters think this column is important enough to sic one of their paid (marginally) human drones on it.
I refer to Tom Turkey; I suspect Asterisk Dude is a sincere kook.
I said Our Masters–but perhaps their subordinates in Turkey sent Tom instead.
S Brennan
Our Masters–but perhaps their subordinates sent *Peter as well, you should see his silly puffery on Ian’s other post…absolutely gloating over Turkey/USA’s murder & support of terrorism today. If this is the NSA’s idea of phys-ops…it needs more competent illusionists…although, it probably works on.
Ivory Bill Woodpecker
SB–Some of Asterisk’s Kodos-like rhetoric on past comment threads has caused me to think he is a sincere kook, but for all I know, you may be correct.
I refer to the original Kodos from Star Trek, not the Simpsons character named after him.
Ian Welsh
Peter seems conversant with talking points for the West and proper trolling methods to me.
Peter*
@Ian
I challenge you to find one word I’ve written here that relies on the West’s or anyone else’s talking points. I agree with most of what is written here about the West except for the made up stuff and my methods are my own.
If you or others have difficulty understanding where I’m coming from that seems to be because of my different viewpoint and rejection of groupthink and dualistic pigeonholing. There are no Good Guys in this conflict and I’m critical of Putin because he had the opportunity to be a better leader but instead reverted to bombs and blood just as the West always does.
I try to base my comments on what I think I know and what can be proven with facts or evidence not on someone else’s thinking, rumors or beliefs.
different clue
Question for Tom:
What “line” did Assad “step over” in 2013?
different clue
Question for Tom not yet answered after a whole day. ( And I see that MFI beat me to asking the question anyway . . . so the question has been not answered for two whole days or more. . . )
And the question is . . . what “line” did Assad “step over” in 2013?
By the way, I wonder if Tom and Peter Asterisk both share the very same computer?
Michelle McSheffrey
I know this comment is a little late, but I’m always behind on my reading. The trolls/shills don’t necessarily need to convince anyone to be effective, they just have to disrupt the conversation, as they have done. Here we are talking about them instead of the topic at hand.