Well America Has Their Thatcher; Congratulations?

/sarcasm

http://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2016/06/gaius-publius-puerto-rico-democratic-party-reduced-primary-votes-to-8-of-what-was-expected.html

and on one further note, it’s been repulsive watching the transformation of once progressive bloggers and news sites into little more than shills for the Democrat party in general and for Hillary in particular.

Digby’s turned into little more than a red-baiting echo chamber, sans comments. Balloon Juice showed John Cole managed to learn nothing from drinking the republican cool-aid and just swapped flavors. The Agonist died a slow death after SPK left. Salon is mostly a navel-gazing SJW dumpster fire. Huffpo makes CNN look like quality journalism. Slate is contrarian just for the lulz and to give them a slightly different spin than Salon. Vice is more rolling stone for Millenials, so different focus. Vox is kind of a joke. Greenwald is still very good but his voice has essentially been muffled after joining the intercept and his post rate seems so sporadic, i’d love to see him leave it and be able to devote his energies to writing full-time again.

It seems the voices of the left on the web are diminishing over time and being replaced with status-quo kool aid drinkers or red-baiting doofuses who refuse to acknowledge that the Dems are the much more effective evil. (and in some cases the greater evil too.)

We all have our pet irritants. For me, it’s the preaching about the need to be realistic — “remember McGovern? All you lefties have a death wish” — the same week that they’re falling all over themselves praising Mohammed Ali for his resistance to the Vietnam war. The smart realists voted against the peace candidate. They now throng to be in the crowd adulating the man who defied the war at his own personal cost.

One shouldn’t bother oneself over the patronizing of the morally unmoored, but I do.

“If Clinton becomes President she will kill and impoverish a lot more people than Sanders would have.”

Sanders would never have become POTUS – never – so you may as well say Jesus or Santa instead of Sanders. Do you Berniacs understand this? That the sheepdog trick – even after it was explained to all of you – has worked perfectly to HC’s benefit is embarrassing.

“If Trump becomes President, well, Sanders was more likely to win a general election against him.”

See number 1 and read it again slowly.

“Bernie might be flawed, but he was significantly better than Clinton on almost every axis than Clinton.”

See number 1 and read it even slower.

“If you are one of Clinton’s retainers she will take care of you. Grats.”

And Sanders supporters would not have benefited from being a Sanders supporter? Let’s ask his wife about that, shall we?

“If you are in the top 3% of the population, you should do well under her policies.”

No POTUS, not even President Santa himself, was going to harm the 3% so let’s not cry about lost unicorns .

“Everyone else will do badly under her policies, or no better than they would have under Bernie.”

See number 1.

“As for brown people overseas, well, no one who voted for Clinton actually gives a shit about whether they live, die or suffer.”

See number 1, memorize it finally, quit your WATB act and realize that this entire election is a freaking Spectacle created to lull well-meaning and seemingly intelligent people into a false sense of complacency by engendering the belief that they are actually participants in the historical course the amoral/genocidal US Empire is on and not just mere cattle chewing cud.

ONCE AGAIN the bourgeois fake-left in the US has needlessly/fruitlessly expended massive quantities of energy/angst and it lies exhausted – as planned by TPTB – b/c it just can’t seem to catch a break, huh? Somehow(?!!) it just can’t seem to ever mount an effective resistance to the evil all around us by attempting to gain control via the channels TPTB have given them, huh?

You know why TPTB are laughing at your tears today, progressives/fake left?

It’s not because of WHY you are all crying but because you’re crying at all! That you’ve taken the bait once again and invested your hopes for change into the sham they foist on you every 4 years.

That’s why they’re deliciously licking the tears off of your ironic mustaches and tattoos.

Seriously, this is the question I ask. Which is more annoying to read?

Progressives and other fake-lefties’ interminable diatribes about how misguided/disastrous US foreign policy – esp. in the ME – has been when any clear-thinking/knowledgeable human can see that it is all going according to decades old plans for controlled chaos and the containment of Russia?

OR

Progressives’ and other fake-lefties interminable whining about how we can work within the system to change the terrible living conditions under the boot of neoliberal fascism when it has been clear for more than a half a century to any clear-thinking/knowledgeable human that this is expressly NOT a viable solution and any time/energy wasting on participating in the system only serves to keep that boot pressed tighter onto the neck of humanity.

Seriously, get a grip.

I find your reaction to Ron highly ironic. He’s only bringing the overall discourse on this thread to its, well, logical conclusion. I think people overestimate how much good Sanders could have done, but I agree he was clearly preferable. However, the reaction to Hillary voters sort of exemplifies why Sanders seemed to do less well on, well, community outreach efforts.

“Reaction to Hillary voters”?

How are we supposed to react to them nominating someone who gave us the USA PATRIOT Act, the war in Iraq, and the Wall Street bailout? If they want more of these things, they deserve every speck of scorn we can come up with.

If they don’t want more of these things, then why the f**k would they vote for Hillary?

If they don’t want more of these things, then why the f**k would they vote for Hillary?

Attitudes towards specific policies is only part of why people vote, he says for the umpteenth time in a decade.

Calling out and shaming would be a fine strategy if the result were a sense of shame rather than defensiveness or tuning out.

I am sure if Ron went on long enough with his rant, he would give me reason to dismiss him as a crank. But, he didn’t this time.

The left, pseudo or not, just does not have a persuasive narrative and the neoliberals do, even after true and desired consequences of neoliberal policy have manifested.

I am as guilty of hoping as the next guy, but most of us are just along for the ride and we would think more clearly if we had sufficient tolerance for experiencing our impotence to just admit it.

One point Ron made about what is sometimes referred to as, there is no alternative, is that the underlying process of imperial decline (or whatever you want to call it) has its own logic. You cannot ignore it. It was what gave Thatcher’s use of that phrase particular force in the context of the decline of British coal. Protest is not enough, if you have no truthful narrative with choice attached.

Sanders was clever in his choice of issues, but he was still a throwback, an exercise in nostalgia. His narrative did not penetrate and it was self-limiting in its reach. It could not be expressed in terms of sufficient anger at the complacent betrayals and hypocrisy and poor judgment that are the core of Clinton politics and still be heard and accepted by the people who need a process to come to understand the course we are all on and just how far removed are the means to any alternative.

Oh Ron, you wiley rascal. I could use your screed for a class on logical fallacies. Actually, that’s true for most of the commenters here unfortunately. It seems we’ve all become somewhat muddled about what is and isn’t important. Happily contented to spew forth vitriol and platitudes at every passing moment without taking the time to really, really think about what the desired outcomes are and how to achieve them.

What happened to a middle ground? Where is the minutest consideration of the common weal? Where’s the fucking politeness and willingness to listen, hear, consider and calmly discuss things that matter.

Ron’s tantrum is merely emotional trauma being vomited up on whoever happens across it but there is a total absence of concern for anyone but himself and his views in it. He’s an angry, emotionally immature narcissist. Like the overwhelming majority of Uhmurcuns.

Bernie, for all his faults, has always been a viable contender. He has policy outlines that will actually increase GDP, increase tax revenues, decrease war profiteering and massive amounts of useless suffering. Does that mean I expect him to ironed out every line item? no, I expect a policy direction that results in least harm.

Simply because the world will see increasing suffering, lousy economic outcomes, and pointless bloodshed, that is no reason to become a willing participant in those outcomes. Much less so to become a passive participant in the wholly defeatists and morally bankrupt stance of “oh grow up!”

How pathetic is that?

“Sanders was clever in his choice of issues, but he was still a throwback, an exercise in nostalgia.”

Policy-wise, yes – but in who supported him, and in how they supported him and in how the people who supported him got and shared their information – not so much, and that is where the future change on the left lies if there is to be any.

Ron – your inability to follow your own advice might be a hint that your guidance is even more futile than those you criticize.

But taking up your point more directly, the inevitability you preach relies heavily on the role of the media as enforcer and this role is breaking down rapidly – does this mean things will change in the way you want things to, or that the powerful won’t marshall their massive resources to find new ways to get what they want? Of course not.

But it is change, and it does open up opportunities that weren’t there before, as does the ongoing, accelerating failure of the current approach to live up to what it promises the 99%

Say what you will, the powers that be did not want Trump to be in this position and they were genuinely scared at times about how well Sanders was doing. They had to take the gloves off a few times (not much, but a bit) and they hate doing that.

@shh

“Ron’s tantrum is merely emotional trauma being vomited up on whoever happens across it but there is a total absence of concern for anyone but himself and his views in it. He’s an angry, emotionally immature narcissist. Like the overwhelming majority of Uhmurcuns.”

Um, 1) you don’t know me but don’t let that stop you from projecting and 2) I’m not one of the fanbois lamenting the loss of their Messiah in the farcical game of US Presidential politics. That would be you and that WOULD be showing a complete absence of concern for anyone else on this planet b/c it shows that you are SO self-righteous that you’re not willing to admit/learn that you’ve been duped – to the detriment of mankind as a whole due to the global reach of the US Empire – once again; just as you were duped today, yesterday, 4 years ago and 4 years before that if you were even old enough to vote which you probably weren’t. NOTE: see how assuming what a poster is/is not like makes your posts look inane? Moving on….

“that is no reason to become a willing participant in those outcomes. Much less so to become a passive participant in the wholly defeatists and morally bankrupt stance of “oh grow up!”

So, by vigorously campaigning and supporting a person to be the representative for one of the two foully corrupt political organizations in the US is NOT being a willing participant? Umm, you might want to reread what I said about being an unwitting dupe in my previous post. As to being a passive defeatist – can I say “nihilist”? – 1) you again can’t judge what I do or don’t do IRL based on a post and 2) unlike many progressives/fake-lefters – e.g. Yves Smith et al – I am certainly NOT the one telling people to throw their morals/conscience/dignity out the window, fully embrace nihilism – in their worldviews – and vote for Trump. Go talk to your fellow Berniacs. And yes, that is pathetic….

@Some Guy

“But taking up your point more directly, the inevitability you preach relies heavily on the role of the media as enforcer and this role is breaking down rapidly”

Did Edward Snowden – that is, the sheepdipped patriotic Libertarian CIA asset that worked hand in glove w/ Pierre “Color Revolution” Omyidar’s employee Glenn Greenwald – help you believe that this is true b/c from where I’m sitting I’ve seen NOTHING to make me believe that anything is breaking down rapidly except maybe intelligent citizens’ abilities to discern just how well the very propaganda system they think is “breaking down” still works.

“Say what you will, the powers that be did not want Trump to be in this position and they were genuinely scared at times about how well Sanders was doing. They had to take the gloves off a few times (not much, but a bit) and they hate doing that.”

And you know this how? Because the same people who to a person hue to exactly the same lines of BS concerning any number of topics – Federal debt, Syria, Iraq, Russia, 9/11, etc etc “accidentally” let some news items “leak” via the very propaganda system that you think is breaking down but which is in fact more effective than ever? Hey, I hate the TPTB as much as you but I at least think they know how to pull the levers that they control.

Furthermore, among other things, most fake-lefites still believe that ISIS is really just an organic outgrowth of ragtag jihadists, that Syria is involved in a civil war and that – somehow – HRC was really the prime/sole mover in the illegal invasion of Libya.

Daily do fake-leftists add credence to these easily dismissed fantasies just as daily – until today maybe? – fake-leftists have lent credence to the Spectacle that is the farcical US political system by supporting the “real” candidate of “change” this time, once again. Wait, but I thought intelligent progressives understood that the whole system was merely “kabuki theater” and that they were savvy as to what is real and what isn’t. That they really understood that the whole thing was a sham…

Oh but that was BEFORE Bernie, got it.

Oh well.

hew

I understand Ron’s comment because Sanders as sheepdog for the corrupt Establishment party structure Clinton represents or as final, ineffectual gesture of a once rebel, now old pol on his way out was always there. It still is. But something happened, probably as much to Sanders’ surprise as anyone else’s, between where he started and where we are now. Like Trump, he tapped into some of the massive discontent in this country. We may be treated like rubes, but we are not rubes. A majority of people may not have a real clear idea of what is wrong or how to fix it, but they do know something is drastically, terminally wrong in the country. It is here that I agree with Bruce Wilder. People needed a compelling narrative: how we got here, who was responsible, where we go from here, and why we should care. Sanders did not do this. He didn’t totally ignore it, but what we got from him were a few good ideas here and there and bits and pieces of a narrative. He never tied it all together though. To do that, he would have had to run and run loudly against the corruption of the Democratic party, not just Debbie Wasserman Schultz, but the thoroughly rigged process, the grifter Clintons, the black misleadership class, and of course, Obama.

He would have had to look black Americans in the eye and ask them, “What did getting the first black American President get you? What did Barack Obama actually ever do for you? Are your neighborhoods safer or have they turned into shooting galleries? Do you have better jobs now? do your children? Do you see a clear path to a better future for them and you?”

And he could have looked to women and made the same argument: “If having the first black President didn’t help black people in this country, why do you think having the first woman President will help you?”

Much of Hillary’s support came from older Americans. These are people for whom the New Deal program of Social Security and the last of the great New Deal inspired programs Medicare (under Johnson) brought a certain level of comfort and security. These are people who have always voted Democratic because for them the Democratic party is still the party of the New Deal. Sanders needed to tell them the modern Democratic party is not the Democratic party you remember and grew up with. It is the party of Wall Street and Hillary Clinton is the candidate of Wall Street. They made her rich. She represents them, not you. And if you think your Social Security and Medicare are safe, then think again. The moment they can, they will take as much of it away from you as they can. How do I know this? because they have already started, raising the retirement age and making the bridging coverage on Medicare more expensive. And they will continue. Finally think of your children. Hillary and the Democrats no longer even pretend that your children will ever have what you had. Why do you think your kids are supporting me?

The truth is you cannot run a revolution by halves. You are either in or out. This is the fatal, and some like Ron would say deliberate, flaw in the Sanders’ campaign. I would say that Sanders still has some options. He can wait until the convention and see if Clinton’s candidacy doesn’t implode from the FBI’s investigation. I don’t expect an indictment because both Clinton and Obama will do everything they can to smother one, but I think pre-convention leaks are likely. I also think that if Trump can simply avoid shooting himself in the foot so often (it’s a given he will be unnecessarily and stupidly offensive fairly regularly), the polls will tighten and he could even pull ahead at which point there could be a lot of buyer’s remorse with Hillary. These are, however, unlikely to derail Clinton’s already damaged candidacy. So we are left with what will Sanders do at and after the convention. And there the choice is stark. If he wishes to remain true to his supporters, he cannot in any way, shape, or how endorse Clinton. He could either release his supporters without formally endorsing Clinton, making clear he does NOT support Clinton, he could come out openly against her and advise his supporters to do likewise, or he could start a third party run. All these options are important because Clinton cannot win the Presidency without Sanders’ voters, no matter how much she wished she could.

On the other hand, if Sanders endorses Clinton, no matter what the rationale, lesser evil whatever, this would be a betrayal of his supporters and validate the Black Agenda Report and Ron’s view of Sanders as sheepdog. But with this difference: while such an endorsement would discredit Sanders, I figure at best only about half of his supporters would kowtow to TINA and vote for Clinton. The rest would either out right reject her, vote Trump or third party, or find something else to do election day. If Sanders did not endorse Clinton, I think a lot of his supporters would feel sanctioned by his action and withhold their support as well, and Clinton would lose the election, even to a fumbling loudmouth like Trump.

I write all this as a non-Sanders supporter. My own view, which I have expressed often enough, is that a vote for any Democrat and any Republican is a vote for more of the same because no matter how you cut it, you are still voting for one of these two parties and that is what they stand for. And more of the same is what is killing our country.

(I will post this here and in the following thread asking your pardon in advance)

@Hugh,

If Sanders had said what you advised to Black America, he would be rejected as racist. They don’t CARE what Obama has done to them. First Black President is enough for them.

For those women who support Clinton because First Woman President, they don’t CARE what the Clintons have done to them and will do them again. If Clinton gets elected she will be First Woman President, and that will be enough.

The age of Racial Identity Politics and Gender Identity Politics is not over. It will have to play all the way out for now. Meanwhile, Sanders has made a start and his backers can work on decontaminating the Democratic Party and making it a party worth voting for again.

If Clinton gets elected, she may not be able to keep all the Zombie Chickens from coming home to roost. The Wall Street Democratic Party may burn all the way down and collapse into its own footprint like the Trade Towers. Then the various “Sanders movements” will be able to build something on the rubblefield . . . after they get it decontaminated and bio-remediated from all traces of Clintonite Obamacratic filth and disease and chemicals.

“I am not trying to convince Clinton voters of shit. I do not write for them, I am not doing outreach to them. Anyone who thinks this blog is about outreach to “centrists” is a fool.”

Which is why I read this blog daily and try to comment when I feel I have a viewpoint to add.

Ian Welsh is one of the rare bloggers with brains, originality, fearless honesty and not on somebody’s dole mouthing the thoughts of others. Yeah, I disagree with him and many of the better commenters here from time to time, but that’s life. But anybody who has read here over the years knows my stripes and knows my shtick, “we need to go back to what works* if we want to move forward”.

And let me add a shout out to Panzer’s 2 sequential comments.

*FDRism [circa 1932-1978…] with FULL inclusion for ALL citizens who shoulder their duty to the country.

America’s Thatcher was Reagan. Clinton is something far worse she’s a female Keith Joseph crossbred with Nigel Lawson fortunately for the UK neither Joseph nor Lawson were ever likely to be Prime Minister. Alas for America and the rest of us President Hillary Clinton is a very real possibility.

@Panzer
Boy, do I hear that! Watching sources you used to think of as informative unbiased etc. turning into Team Blue uber alles, though really Balloon Juice was pretty much blue dogs and Obots from the get go. Or watching the once incisive Joe Cannon descend into shrieking hysteric(though that seems to have been following a stroke, so…)name calling at anyone who suggested that the sun did not in fact, shine from Clintonova’s ass. Like others have said, its why I come here to Ian’s place. You may disagree but you’ll always get a good argument, often raising points that just don’t get get much traction elsewhere in the web-o-sphere.
And Ron, it’s not that the rest of us are failing to realize the futility of the American political process, it’s that we still have some tiny, marginal, sliver of hope that we can SOMEHOW avoid violent revolution ala’ the Khmer Rouge. Probably, we’re deluding ourselves and we should be stockpiling arms and food but then I think the violent reactionaries are already way ahead of us on that score.